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I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as silly creatures.</div>
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For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for distance's sake". It is recognizing that both sides of this split are hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being IRC infrastructure. I've never given it 2 minutes
of thought before this, and may not ever again. It just doesn't matter that much. Which network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background noise? That's all I want.<br>
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Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say, small potatoes. Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any evidence of being discriminatory? What would that even mean in the context of an IRC host? It is a moot point, and
it need not be elevated into some issue of prime importance. Is this what life has been reduced to? Is this as good as it gets?</div>
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Dan</div>
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Daniel Wells</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Evergreen-general <evergreen-general-bounces@list.evergreen-ils.org> on behalf of Mike Rylander <mrylander@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Evergreen Discussion Group <evergreen-general@list.evergreen-ils.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?</font>
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<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div class="PlainText">I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning.<br>
Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both<br>
technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO.<br>
<br>
I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument<br>
that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid<br>
the appearance of taking sides. This isn't analogous to a divorce<br>
where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project<br>
WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated<br>
values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision.<br>
<br>
I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in<br>
the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values<br>
of the Evergreen project. That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well,<br>
and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to<br>
all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features<br>
rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mike Rylander<br>
Research and Development Manager<br>
Equinox Open Library Initiative<br>
1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)<br>
work: miker@equinoxOLI.org<br>
personal: mrylander@gmail.com<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=</a>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <JBoyer@equinoxoli.org> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about whether we should move, only where we should land.<br>
><br>
> I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few reasons:<br>
> 1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used to managing a large network<br>
> 2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re basically at feature parity with what we expect<br>
> 3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as Galen mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their management policies will be quite robust.<br>
> 4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects have already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs, ZNC, Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I
suspect a number of large projects are already represented there should one actually search them out.<br>
><br>
> Jason<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jason Boyer<br>
> Senior System Administrator<br>
> Equinox Open Library Initiative<br>
> JBoyer@equinoxOLI.org<br>
> +1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457)<br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=">
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<br>
><br>
> On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <gmc@equinoxoli.org> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for years. However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response to a dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2].<br>
><br>
> A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib, have migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded by the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for years and hosts, among other groups,
#koha). However, Freenode has apparently started locking channels that mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3]<br>
><br>
> I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently,
I suggest that we consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC. #evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks.<br>
><br>
> Here are some pros and cons I see:<br>
><br>
> Libera.Chat<br>
> ---------------<br>
> Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly for over a decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith, ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or age. [4]<br>
> Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with other web IRC services.<br>
><br>
> OFTC<br>
> -------<br>
> Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes with a built-in web chat client.<br>
> Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination clauses. [5]<br>
><br>
> I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the Evergreen Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on whether to leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or Libera.Chat. Discussion about the IRC network is
taking place on the Freenode #evergreen IRC channel as well.<br>
><br>
> I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would be valid, but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be done in parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen.<br>
><br>
> [1] <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=</a>
<br>
> [2] <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=</a>
<br>
> [3] <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=</a>
<br>
> [4] <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=</a>
<br>
> [5] <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=</a>
<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> Galen<br>
> --<br>
> Galen Charlton<br>
> Implementation and IT Manager<br>
> Equinox Open Library Initiative<br>
> gmc@equinoxOLI.org<br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=">
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<br>
> phone: 877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)<br>
> direct: 770-709-5581<br>
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