[Evergreen-circ] Payments on Overdue Items Apply to Lost Charge

Wed Feb 3 16:38:33 EST 2021

Hi Dawn,

I should have specified that we prohibit negative balances, and have our
library settings set appropriately for that.

If your system is not set to prohibit negative balances, then it sounds
like the behavior John is describing works fine for your situation. I still
raise my eyebrows a little regarding forgive payments being adjusted,
though.

I would characterize this behavior as a bug in the way the prohibit
negative balances settings work, and wouldn't advocate any changes for
libraries where the prohibit negative balance settings aren't set.

John, does this align with your thinking?

Michele
--
Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
mmorgan at noblenet.org

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:28 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org> wrote:

> Hi Michele,
>
> We do use longoverdue and we also need negative balances.  When a patron
> returns a lost item within 6 months we do refund part of their money.  So
> having EG allow negative balances is needed for us.  If EG could reverse
> any adjustments, forgive, payments when it reverses the fines would be
> helpful as long as reversing actual payments were given back to the patron
> so that they could be applied to the amount refunded. The adjustments and
> forgives would need to be reversed but not given to the patron as an actual
> payment.
>
> I hope this makes sense :)  It seems very complicated.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Georgia Public Library Service
>
> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>
> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>
> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 3:58 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I haven't heard specific reports of this problem, but I'm not convinced
>> it's not happening in NOBLE.
>>
>> We have currently suspended billing items, previously we were billing at
>> 42 days, and we do use Long Overdue.
>>
>> I did a test on a test server with our production database, where I had a
>> patron with an overdue item and accrued fines of $10
>>
>> I paid $2 of that overdue fine and forgave $1. I then marked the item
>> Lost from the patron's Items Out screen. The Lost billing amount is $25.01.
>>
>> When I look at the billings and payments now, for billings, I see the
>> following billings
>>
>> 50 billings of $.10 each - overdue fines
>> 1 billing of $25.01 - Lost billing
>>
>> For payments, I see:
>>
>> 1 cash payment of $2
>> 1 forgive payment of $1
>> 50 adjustment payments of $.10 each
>>
>> The patron owes a balance of $22.01. So this illustrates the same
>> behavior you are describing.
>>
>> So it looks like, despite payments of one kind or another, all overdue
>> billings are being adjusted when the item is marked Lost. This definitely
>> sounds like a bug.
>>
>> It seems like the Prohibit Negative Balance settings should take care of
>> this, but if the Lost billing is being added before the overdue fines are
>> adjusted, it won't result in a negative balance, but it will offset some of
>> the Lost billing, as you are seeing.
>>
>> I will try and confirm whether the same thing is happening with our setup
>> that uses Long Overdue and report back.
>>
>> Michele
>>
>> --
>> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
>> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
>> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:41 PM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Dawn.
>>>
>>> That's helpful.
>>>
>>> The workflow unfortunately does require staff noticing the discrepancies
>>> and then adjusting, which leaves us in a similar boat to what we are in now.
>>>
>>> I'm hoping that there's ultimately an automated solution to this.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>
>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>
>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>
>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:05 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi John,,
>>>>
>>>> When a patron has overdues of $2.00 and they are forgiven and then
>>>> reversed leaving a balance of -$2.00 that then gets applied to the cost of
>>>> the item, $25.00, it leaves a balance of $23.00.  The cost of the item is
>>>> still $25.00 but the summary shows $23.00.  I would have staff "adjust to
>>>> zero" the negative balance bill so that the summary shows $25.00.  It
>>>> will mean staff will need to be diligent in looking at the patron bills
>>>> before taking payment though. Someone could look at the patrons with
>>>> negative balances daily and make those adjustments but depending on how
>>>> many patrons that would involve, that may not be doable.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps some.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>>
>>>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>>>
>>>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>"
>>>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>>>
>>>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>>>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:56 AM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am hoping for some feedback and possible advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> *TL;DR:*
>>>>> We are having an issue where payments made while an item is overdue
>>>>> are deducted from the replacement cost if the item becomes Lost. This is an
>>>>> issue for some of our libraries because of how funds are handled. We have
>>>>> tried adjusting settings to help with this, but without the desired result.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is your library/network experiencing this, is it an issue, and do you
>>>>> have a workaround?
>>>>>
>>>>> *Full details:*
>>>>> In our system, checked out items become LOST at 28 days overdue, and
>>>>> we do not use the Long Overdue setting. When an item becomes LOST, settings
>>>>> are in place so that the overdue fines are reversed, and only the
>>>>> replacement charge of the item is due.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is an example of how this works:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. Then the item becomes
>>>>>    lost, which reverses the overdue fines and adds a $25.00 replacement cost.
>>>>>    The patron owes a total of $25.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>
>>>>> This works well most of the time. However, with the pandemic and many
>>>>> libraries forgiving fines, we are running into a situation more often. If
>>>>> an item's overdue fines are paid for or forgiven while an item is still
>>>>> checked out and overdue, and the item becomes lost, the "payment" made
>>>>> against the overdue is applied to the lost charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an example of this:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. While overdue, the fines
>>>>>    are forgiven. The item becomes lost, which reverses the overdue fines and
>>>>>    adds a $25.00 replacement cost. The $2.00 "payment" is not reversed, and
>>>>>    the patron now only owes $23.00 for the bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has been problematic for some of our libraries because overdue
>>>>> fines and lost charges go to separate accounts. For others, it's a problem
>>>>> simply because they are not receiving the full replacement cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> After some discussion, we investigated adjusting our library settings
>>>>> so that overdue fines are not adjusted when an item becomes lost. So, when
>>>>> an item becomes lost, its overdue fines are still owed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a couple examples of how this works:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fees and then becomes lost. The
>>>>>    item's replacement cost of $25.00 is charged. The patron owes a total of
>>>>>    $27.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>    - The item's $2.00 in fines are forgiven while the time is still
>>>>>    checked out. The item becomes lost. Only the $25.00 replacement cost is
>>>>>    owed for the transaction.
>>>>>
>>>>> The issue with this behavior is that it doesn't solve the underlying
>>>>> problem, and libraries still need to be diligent to ensure fines/lost
>>>>> charges are collected appropriately.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is this situation handled at your library?
>>>>>
>>>>> If there isn't a current workaround, I plan to open up a bug report on
>>>>> Launchpad, but I wanted to check with the list first to make sure we are
>>>>> not missing something.
>>>>>
>>>>> In an ideal world, a setting could be enabled so that payments made
>>>>> while an item is overdue are also adjusted in some manner so that the
>>>>> payment does not affect the lost charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>>
>>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>>
>>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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