[Evergreen-circ] Payments on Overdue Items Apply to Lost Charge

Wed Feb 3 16:54:12 EST 2021

I see what you are saying, Michele. Thanks for helping us sort this all out.

*Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*

------------------------------

Georgia Public Library Service

2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341

(404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org

<https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
<https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
<https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>

Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for stories
of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:38 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org> wrote:

> Hi Dawn,
>
> I should have specified that we prohibit negative balances, and have our
> library settings set appropriately for that.
>
> If your system is not set to prohibit negative balances, then it sounds
> like the behavior John is describing works fine for your situation. I still
> raise my eyebrows a little regarding forgive payments being adjusted,
> though.
>
> I would characterize this behavior as a bug in the way the prohibit
> negative balances settings work, and wouldn't advocate any changes for
> libraries where the prohibit negative balance settings aren't set.
>
> John, does this align with your thinking?
>
> Michele
> --
> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:28 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Michele,
>>
>> We do use longoverdue and we also need negative balances.  When a patron
>> returns a lost item within 6 months we do refund part of their money.  So
>> having EG allow negative balances is needed for us.  If EG could reverse
>> any adjustments, forgive, payments when it reverses the fines would be
>> helpful as long as reversing actual payments were given back to the patron
>> so that they could be applied to the amount refunded. The adjustments and
>> forgives would need to be reversed but not given to the patron as an actual
>> payment.
>>
>> I hope this makes sense :)  It seems very complicated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>
>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>
>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>
>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 3:58 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I haven't heard specific reports of this problem, but I'm not convinced
>>> it's not happening in NOBLE.
>>>
>>> We have currently suspended billing items, previously we were billing at
>>> 42 days, and we do use Long Overdue.
>>>
>>> I did a test on a test server with our production database, where I had
>>> a patron with an overdue item and accrued fines of $10
>>>
>>> I paid $2 of that overdue fine and forgave $1. I then marked the item
>>> Lost from the patron's Items Out screen. The Lost billing amount is $25.01.
>>>
>>> When I look at the billings and payments now, for billings, I see the
>>> following billings
>>>
>>> 50 billings of $.10 each - overdue fines
>>> 1 billing of $25.01 - Lost billing
>>>
>>> For payments, I see:
>>>
>>> 1 cash payment of $2
>>> 1 forgive payment of $1
>>> 50 adjustment payments of $.10 each
>>>
>>> The patron owes a balance of $22.01. So this illustrates the same
>>> behavior you are describing.
>>>
>>> So it looks like, despite payments of one kind or another, all overdue
>>> billings are being adjusted when the item is marked Lost. This definitely
>>> sounds like a bug.
>>>
>>> It seems like the Prohibit Negative Balance settings should take care of
>>> this, but if the Lost billing is being added before the overdue fines are
>>> adjusted, it won't result in a negative balance, but it will offset some of
>>> the Lost billing, as you are seeing.
>>>
>>> I will try and confirm whether the same thing is happening with
>>> our setup that uses Long Overdue and report back.
>>>
>>> Michele
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
>>> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
>>> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:41 PM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Dawn.
>>>>
>>>> That's helpful.
>>>>
>>>> The workflow unfortunately does require staff noticing the
>>>> discrepancies and then adjusting, which leaves us in a similar boat to what
>>>> we are in now.
>>>>
>>>> I'm hoping that there's ultimately an automated solution to this.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>
>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>
>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:05 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,,
>>>>>
>>>>> When a patron has overdues of $2.00 and they are forgiven and then
>>>>> reversed leaving a balance of -$2.00 that then gets applied to the cost of
>>>>> the item, $25.00, it leaves a balance of $23.00.  The cost of the item is
>>>>> still $25.00 but the summary shows $23.00.  I would have staff "adjust to
>>>>> zero" the negative balance bill so that the summary shows $25.00.  It
>>>>> will mean staff will need to be diligent in looking at the patron bills
>>>>> before taking payment though. Someone could look at the patrons with
>>>>> negative balances daily and make those adjustments but depending on how
>>>>> many patrons that would involve, that may not be doable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this helps some.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>>>
>>>>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>>>>
>>>>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>"
>>>>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>>>>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:56 AM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am hoping for some feedback and possible advice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *TL;DR:*
>>>>>> We are having an issue where payments made while an item is overdue
>>>>>> are deducted from the replacement cost if the item becomes Lost. This is an
>>>>>> issue for some of our libraries because of how funds are handled. We have
>>>>>> tried adjusting settings to help with this, but without the desired result.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is your library/network experiencing this, is it an issue, and do you
>>>>>> have a workaround?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Full details:*
>>>>>> In our system, checked out items become LOST at 28 days overdue, and
>>>>>> we do not use the Long Overdue setting. When an item becomes LOST, settings
>>>>>> are in place so that the overdue fines are reversed, and only the
>>>>>> replacement charge of the item is due.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is an example of how this works:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. Then the item becomes
>>>>>>    lost, which reverses the overdue fines and adds a $25.00 replacement cost.
>>>>>>    The patron owes a total of $25.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This works well most of the time. However, with the pandemic and many
>>>>>> libraries forgiving fines, we are running into a situation more often. If
>>>>>> an item's overdue fines are paid for or forgiven while an item is still
>>>>>> checked out and overdue, and the item becomes lost, the "payment" made
>>>>>> against the overdue is applied to the lost charge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's an example of this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. While overdue, the
>>>>>>    fines are forgiven. The item becomes lost, which reverses the overdue fines
>>>>>>    and adds a $25.00 replacement cost. The $2.00 "payment" is not reversed,
>>>>>>    and the patron now only owes $23.00 for the bill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This has been problematic for some of our libraries because overdue
>>>>>> fines and lost charges go to separate accounts. For others, it's a problem
>>>>>> simply because they are not receiving the full replacement cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After some discussion, we investigated adjusting our library settings
>>>>>> so that overdue fines are not adjusted when an item becomes lost. So, when
>>>>>> an item becomes lost, its overdue fines are still owed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a couple examples of how this works:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fees and then becomes lost.
>>>>>>    The item's replacement cost of $25.00 is charged. The patron owes a total
>>>>>>    of $27.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>>    - The item's $2.00 in fines are forgiven while the time is still
>>>>>>    checked out. The item becomes lost. Only the $25.00 replacement cost is
>>>>>>    owed for the transaction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The issue with this behavior is that it doesn't solve the underlying
>>>>>> problem, and libraries still need to be diligent to ensure fines/lost
>>>>>> charges are collected appropriately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is this situation handled at your library?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there isn't a current workaround, I plan to open up a bug report
>>>>>> on Launchpad, but I wanted to check with the list first to make sure we are
>>>>>> not missing something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an ideal world, a setting could be enabled so that payments made
>>>>>> while an item is overdue are also adjusted in some manner so that the
>>>>>> payment does not affect the lost charge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Evergreen-circ mailing list
> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.evergreen-ils.org/pipermail/evergreen-circ/attachments/20210203/a5997683/attachment-0001.html>