[Evergreen-circ] Payments on Overdue Items Apply to Lost Charge

Dawn Dale ddale at georgialibraries.org
Wed Feb 3 17:02:07 EST 2021 

John, I added heat even though it does not actually affect us according to
Michele's description. I would still like to see this fixed.



*Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*

------------------------------

Georgia Public Library Service

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(404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org

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On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:56 PM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org> wrote:

> Thanks, Michele and Dawn, for your feedback.
>
> I have added a bug report:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1914470
>
> In it, I advocate a little for a library setting since the current
> behavior may be favorable to some.
>
> John
>
> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>
> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>
> https://www.cwmars.org
>
> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:54 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I see what you are saying, Michele. Thanks for helping us sort this all
>> out.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>
>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>
>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>
>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:38 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dawn,
>>>
>>> I should have specified that we prohibit negative balances, and have our
>>> library settings set appropriately for that.
>>>
>>> If your system is not set to prohibit negative balances, then it sounds
>>> like the behavior John is describing works fine for your situation. I still
>>> raise my eyebrows a little regarding forgive payments being adjusted,
>>> though.
>>>
>>> I would characterize this behavior as a bug in the way the prohibit
>>> negative balances settings work, and wouldn't advocate any changes for
>>> libraries where the prohibit negative balance settings aren't set.
>>>
>>> John, does this align with your thinking?
>>>
>>> Michele
>>> --
>>> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
>>> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
>>> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:28 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Michele,
>>>>
>>>> We do use longoverdue and we also need negative balances.  When a
>>>> patron returns a lost item within 6 months we do refund part of their
>>>> money.  So having EG allow negative balances is needed for us.  If EG could
>>>> reverse any adjustments, forgive, payments when it reverses the fines would
>>>> be helpful as long as reversing actual payments were given back to the
>>>> patron so that they could be applied to the amount refunded. The
>>>> adjustments and forgives would need to be reversed but not given to the
>>>> patron as an actual payment.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this makes sense :)  It seems very complicated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>>
>>>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>>>
>>>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
>>>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>>>
>>>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>>>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 3:58 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't heard specific reports of this problem, but I'm not
>>>>> convinced it's not happening in NOBLE.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have currently suspended billing items, previously we were billing
>>>>> at 42 days, and we do use Long Overdue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did a test on a test server with our production database, where I
>>>>> had a patron with an overdue item and accrued fines of $10
>>>>>
>>>>> I paid $2 of that overdue fine and forgave $1. I then marked the item
>>>>> Lost from the patron's Items Out screen. The Lost billing amount is $25.01.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I look at the billings and payments now, for billings, I see the
>>>>> following billings
>>>>>
>>>>> 50 billings of $.10 each - overdue fines
>>>>> 1 billing of $25.01 - Lost billing
>>>>>
>>>>> For payments, I see:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 cash payment of $2
>>>>> 1 forgive payment of $1
>>>>> 50 adjustment payments of $.10 each
>>>>>
>>>>> The patron owes a balance of $22.01. So this illustrates the same
>>>>> behavior you are describing.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it looks like, despite payments of one kind or another, all overdue
>>>>> billings are being adjusted when the item is marked Lost. This definitely
>>>>> sounds like a bug.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like the Prohibit Negative Balance settings should take care
>>>>> of this, but if the Lost billing is being added before the overdue fines
>>>>> are adjusted, it won't result in a negative balance, but it will offset
>>>>> some of the Lost billing, as you are seeing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will try and confirm whether the same thing is happening with
>>>>> our setup that uses Long Overdue and report back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michele
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
>>>>> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
>>>>> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:41 PM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Dawn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The workflow unfortunately does require staff noticing the
>>>>>> discrepancies and then adjusting, which leaves us in a similar boat to what
>>>>>> we are in now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm hoping that there's ultimately an automated solution to this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:05 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John,,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When a patron has overdues of $2.00 and they are forgiven and then
>>>>>>> reversed leaving a balance of -$2.00 that then gets applied to the cost of
>>>>>>> the item, $25.00, it leaves a balance of $23.00.  The cost of the item is
>>>>>>> still $25.00 but the summary shows $23.00.  I would have staff "adjust to
>>>>>>> zero" the negative balance bill so that the summary shows $25.00.  It
>>>>>>> will mean staff will need to be diligent in looking at the patron bills
>>>>>>> before taking payment though. Someone could look at the patrons with
>>>>>>> negative balances daily and make those adjustments but depending on how
>>>>>>> many patrons that would involve, that may not be doable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope this helps some.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>"
>>>>>>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>>>>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>>>>>>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:56 AM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am hoping for some feedback and possible advice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *TL;DR:*
>>>>>>>> We are having an issue where payments made while an item is overdue
>>>>>>>> are deducted from the replacement cost if the item becomes Lost. This is an
>>>>>>>> issue for some of our libraries because of how funds are handled. We have
>>>>>>>> tried adjusting settings to help with this, but without the desired result.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is your library/network experiencing this, is it an issue, and do
>>>>>>>> you have a workaround?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Full details:*
>>>>>>>> In our system, checked out items become LOST at 28 days overdue,
>>>>>>>> and we do not use the Long Overdue setting. When an item becomes LOST,
>>>>>>>> settings are in place so that the overdue fines are reversed, and only the
>>>>>>>> replacement charge of the item is due.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is an example of how this works:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. Then the item becomes
>>>>>>>>    lost, which reverses the overdue fines and adds a $25.00 replacement cost.
>>>>>>>>    The patron owes a total of $25.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This works well most of the time. However, with the pandemic and
>>>>>>>> many libraries forgiving fines, we are running into a situation more often.
>>>>>>>> If an item's overdue fines are paid for or forgiven while an item is still
>>>>>>>> checked out and overdue, and the item becomes lost, the "payment" made
>>>>>>>> against the overdue is applied to the lost charge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's an example of this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. While overdue, the
>>>>>>>>    fines are forgiven. The item becomes lost, which reverses the overdue fines
>>>>>>>>    and adds a $25.00 replacement cost. The $2.00 "payment" is not reversed,
>>>>>>>>    and the patron now only owes $23.00 for the bill.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This has been problematic for some of our libraries because overdue
>>>>>>>> fines and lost charges go to separate accounts. For others, it's a problem
>>>>>>>> simply because they are not receiving the full replacement cost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After some discussion, we investigated adjusting our library
>>>>>>>> settings so that overdue fines are not adjusted when an item becomes lost.
>>>>>>>> So, when an item becomes lost, its overdue fines are still owed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's a couple examples of how this works:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fees and then becomes lost.
>>>>>>>>    The item's replacement cost of $25.00 is charged. The patron owes a total
>>>>>>>>    of $27.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>>>>    - The item's $2.00 in fines are forgiven while the time is
>>>>>>>>    still checked out. The item becomes lost. Only the $25.00 replacement cost
>>>>>>>>    is owed for the transaction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The issue with this behavior is that it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>> underlying problem, and libraries still need to be diligent to ensure
>>>>>>>> fines/lost charges are collected appropriately.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How is this situation handled at your library?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there isn't a current workaround, I plan to open up a bug report
>>>>>>>> on Launchpad, but I wanted to check with the list first to make sure we are
>>>>>>>> not missing something.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In an ideal world, a setting could be enabled so that payments made
>>>>>>>> while an item is overdue are also adjusted in some manner so that the
>>>>>>>> payment does not affect the lost charge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
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