[Evergreen-circ] Payments on Overdue Items Apply to Lost Charge

John Amundson jamundson at cwmars.org
Wed Feb 3 16:56:36 EST 2021 

Thanks, Michele and Dawn, for your feedback.

I have added a bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1914470

In it, I advocate a little for a library setting since the current behavior
may be favorable to some.

John

John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS

jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>

https://www.cwmars.org

He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:54 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org> wrote:

> I see what you are saying, Michele. Thanks for helping us sort this all
> out.
>
>
>
> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Georgia Public Library Service
>
> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>
> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>
> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:38 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dawn,
>>
>> I should have specified that we prohibit negative balances, and have our
>> library settings set appropriately for that.
>>
>> If your system is not set to prohibit negative balances, then it sounds
>> like the behavior John is describing works fine for your situation. I still
>> raise my eyebrows a little regarding forgive payments being adjusted,
>> though.
>>
>> I would characterize this behavior as a bug in the way the prohibit
>> negative balances settings work, and wouldn't advocate any changes for
>> libraries where the prohibit negative balance settings aren't set.
>>
>> John, does this align with your thinking?
>>
>> Michele
>> --
>> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
>> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
>> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 4:28 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michele,
>>>
>>> We do use longoverdue and we also need negative balances.  When a patron
>>> returns a lost item within 6 months we do refund part of their money.  So
>>> having EG allow negative balances is needed for us.  If EG could reverse
>>> any adjustments, forgive, payments when it reverses the fines would be
>>> helpful as long as reversing actual payments were given back to the patron
>>> so that they could be applied to the amount refunded. The adjustments and
>>> forgives would need to be reversed but not given to the patron as an actual
>>> payment.
>>>
>>> I hope this makes sense :)  It seems very complicated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>
>>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>>
>>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
>>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>>
>>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 3:58 PM Morgan, Michele <mmorgan at noblenet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>> I haven't heard specific reports of this problem, but I'm not convinced
>>>> it's not happening in NOBLE.
>>>>
>>>> We have currently suspended billing items, previously we were billing
>>>> at 42 days, and we do use Long Overdue.
>>>>
>>>> I did a test on a test server with our production database, where I had
>>>> a patron with an overdue item and accrued fines of $10
>>>>
>>>> I paid $2 of that overdue fine and forgave $1. I then marked the item
>>>> Lost from the patron's Items Out screen. The Lost billing amount is $25.01.
>>>>
>>>> When I look at the billings and payments now, for billings, I see the
>>>> following billings
>>>>
>>>> 50 billings of $.10 each - overdue fines
>>>> 1 billing of $25.01 - Lost billing
>>>>
>>>> For payments, I see:
>>>>
>>>> 1 cash payment of $2
>>>> 1 forgive payment of $1
>>>> 50 adjustment payments of $.10 each
>>>>
>>>> The patron owes a balance of $22.01. So this illustrates the same
>>>> behavior you are describing.
>>>>
>>>> So it looks like, despite payments of one kind or another, all overdue
>>>> billings are being adjusted when the item is marked Lost. This definitely
>>>> sounds like a bug.
>>>>
>>>> It seems like the Prohibit Negative Balance settings should take care
>>>> of this, but if the Lost billing is being added before the overdue fines
>>>> are adjusted, it won't result in a negative balance, but it will offset
>>>> some of the Lost billing, as you are seeing.
>>>>
>>>> I will try and confirm whether the same thing is happening with
>>>> our setup that uses Long Overdue and report back.
>>>>
>>>> Michele
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michele M. Morgan, Technical Support Analyst
>>>> North of Boston Library Exchange, Danvers Massachusetts
>>>> mmorgan at noblenet.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:41 PM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Dawn.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> The workflow unfortunately does require staff noticing the
>>>>> discrepancies and then adjusting, which leaves us in a similar boat to what
>>>>> we are in now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm hoping that there's ultimately an automated solution to this.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>>
>>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>>
>>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:05 PM Dawn Dale <ddale at georgialibraries.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When a patron has overdues of $2.00 and they are forgiven and then
>>>>>> reversed leaving a balance of -$2.00 that then gets applied to the cost of
>>>>>> the item, $25.00, it leaves a balance of $23.00.  The cost of the item is
>>>>>> still $25.00 but the summary shows $23.00.  I would have staff "adjust to
>>>>>> zero" the negative balance bill so that the summary shows $25.00.  It
>>>>>> will mean staff will need to be diligent in looking at the patron bills
>>>>>> before taking payment though. Someone could look at the patrons with
>>>>>> negative balances daily and make those adjustments but depending on how
>>>>>> many patrons that would involve, that may not be doable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope this helps some.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Dawn Dale, PINES Services Specialist - Circulation*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (404) 291-2800, ddale at georgialibraries.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>"
>>>>>> <https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
>>>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for
>>>>>> stories of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:56 AM John Amundson <jamundson at cwmars.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am hoping for some feedback and possible advice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *TL;DR:*
>>>>>>> We are having an issue where payments made while an item is overdue
>>>>>>> are deducted from the replacement cost if the item becomes Lost. This is an
>>>>>>> issue for some of our libraries because of how funds are handled. We have
>>>>>>> tried adjusting settings to help with this, but without the desired result.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is your library/network experiencing this, is it an issue, and do
>>>>>>> you have a workaround?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Full details:*
>>>>>>> In our system, checked out items become LOST at 28 days overdue, and
>>>>>>> we do not use the Long Overdue setting. When an item becomes LOST, settings
>>>>>>> are in place so that the overdue fines are reversed, and only the
>>>>>>> replacement charge of the item is due.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is an example of how this works:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. Then the item becomes
>>>>>>>    lost, which reverses the overdue fines and adds a $25.00 replacement cost.
>>>>>>>    The patron owes a total of $25.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This works well most of the time. However, with the pandemic and
>>>>>>> many libraries forgiving fines, we are running into a situation more often.
>>>>>>> If an item's overdue fines are paid for or forgiven while an item is still
>>>>>>> checked out and overdue, and the item becomes lost, the "payment" made
>>>>>>> against the overdue is applied to the lost charge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's an example of this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fines. While overdue, the
>>>>>>>    fines are forgiven. The item becomes lost, which reverses the overdue fines
>>>>>>>    and adds a $25.00 replacement cost. The $2.00 "payment" is not reversed,
>>>>>>>    and the patron now only owes $23.00 for the bill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This has been problematic for some of our libraries because overdue
>>>>>>> fines and lost charges go to separate accounts. For others, it's a problem
>>>>>>> simply because they are not receiving the full replacement cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After some discussion, we investigated adjusting our library
>>>>>>> settings so that overdue fines are not adjusted when an item becomes lost.
>>>>>>> So, when an item becomes lost, its overdue fines are still owed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's a couple examples of how this works:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - An item accrues $2.00 in overdue fees and then becomes lost.
>>>>>>>    The item's replacement cost of $25.00 is charged. The patron owes a total
>>>>>>>    of $27.00 for the transaction.
>>>>>>>    - The item's $2.00 in fines are forgiven while the time is still
>>>>>>>    checked out. The item becomes lost. Only the $25.00 replacement cost is
>>>>>>>    owed for the transaction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The issue with this behavior is that it doesn't solve the underlying
>>>>>>> problem, and libraries still need to be diligent to ensure fines/lost
>>>>>>> charges are collected appropriately.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is this situation handled at your library?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there isn't a current workaround, I plan to open up a bug report
>>>>>>> on Launchpad, but I wanted to check with the list first to make sure we are
>>>>>>> not missing something.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In an ideal world, a setting could be enabled so that payments made
>>>>>>> while an item is overdue are also adjusted in some manner so that the
>>>>>>> payment does not affect the lost charge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Amundson | Library Applications Supervisor | CW MARS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> jamundson at cwmars.org | 508-755-3323 x322 <%28508%29%20755-3323>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.cwmars.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He/Him/His <https://www.mypronouns.org/he-him>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Evergreen-circ mailing list
>> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Evergreen-circ mailing list
> Evergreen-circ at list.evergreen-ils.org
> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-circ
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.evergreen-ils.org/pipermail/evergreen-circ/attachments/20210203/3fcc52e6/attachment-0001.html>

More information about the Evergreen-circ mailing list