[Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?

Tue Jun 1 08:40:16 EDT 2021

FWIW I had a brief chat with one of the administrators of OFTC and they
said they are open to pull requests on their policy.  I have opened one
adding the following language: "Discrimination based on faith, ethnicity,
sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or age is not
permitted."

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 12:18 PM Chris Sharp <csharp at georgialibraries.org>
wrote:

> I have a preference for Libera because it seems like the logical place to
> land along with the other Free/Open Source Software projects that have
> already done so, including Code4Lib.  I don't have much experience with
> OFTC so I don't have a strong opinion for or against it.
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 1:19 PM Jason Stephenson <jason at sigio.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi, all.
>>
>> I want to add that I, like Dan, am not too concerned about explicit
>> values statements. I don't think they matter for much. Actions speak
>> louder than words.
>>
>> Jason Stephenson
>>
>> On 5/28/21 9:39 AM, Dan Wells wrote:
>> > I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as
>> silly
>> > creatures.
>> >
>> > For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for
>> > distance's sake".  It is recognizing that both sides of this split are
>> > hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being
>> > IRC infrastructure.  I've never given it 2 minutes of thought before
>> > this, and may not ever again.  It just doesn't matter that much.  Which
>> > network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background
>> > noise?  That's all I want.
>> >
>> > Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say,
>> > small potatoes.  Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any
>> > evidence of being discriminatory?  What would that even mean in the
>> > context of an IRC host?  It is a moot point, and it need not be
>> elevated
>> > into some issue of prime importance.  Is this what life has been
>> reduced
>> > to?  Is this as good as it gets?
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>> > Daniel Wells
>> > Head of Technology Services
>> > Hekman Library, Calvin University
>> > 616.526.7133
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From:* Evergreen-general
>> > <evergreen-general-bounces at list.evergreen-ils.org> on behalf of Mike
>> > Rylander <mrylander at gmail.com>
>> > *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM
>> > *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group <
>> evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org>
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC
>> network?
>> > I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning.
>> > Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both
>> > technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO.
>> >
>> > I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument
>> > that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid
>> > the appearance of taking sides.  This isn't analogous to a divorce
>> > where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project
>> > WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated
>> > values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision.
>> >
>> > I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in
>> > the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values
>> > of the Evergreen project.  That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well,
>> > and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to
>> > all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features
>> > rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mike Rylander
>> > Research and Development Manager
>> > Equinox Open Library Initiative
>> > 1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
>> > work: miker at equinoxOLI.org
>> > personal: mrylander at gmail.com
>> >
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <JBoyer at equinoxoli.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about
>> whether we should move, only where we should land.
>> >>
>> >> I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few
>> reasons:
>> >> 1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used
>> to managing a large network
>> >> 2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re
>> basically at feature parity with what we expect
>> >> 3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as
>> Galen mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their
>> management policies will be quite robust.
>> >> 4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects
>> have already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs,
>> ZNC, Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed
>> incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I  suspect a number of large
>> projects are already represented there
>> > should one actually search them out.
>> >>
>> >> Jason
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Jason Boyer
>> >> Senior System Administrator
>> >> Equinox Open Library Initiative
>> >> JBoyer at equinoxOLI.org
>> >> +1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457)
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <gmc at equinoxoli.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for
>> years. However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response
>> to a dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2].
>> >>
>> >> A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib,
>> have migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded
>> by the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for
>> years and hosts, among other groups,  #koha). However, Freenode has
>> apparently started locking channels that
>> > mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3]
>> >>
>> >> I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively
>> undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss
>> their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find
>> commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently,  I suggest that we
>> consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC.
>> > #evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks.
>> >>
>> >> Here are some pros and cons I see:
>> >>
>> >> Libera.Chat
>> >> ---------------
>> >> Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly
>> for over a decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith,
>> ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or
>> age. [4]
>> >> Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with
>> other web IRC services.
>> >>
>> >> OFTC
>> >> -------
>> >> Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes
>> with a built-in web chat client.
>> >> Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination
>> clauses. [5]
>> >>
>> >> I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the
>> Evergreen Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on
>> whether to leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or
>> Libera.Chat. Discussion about the IRC network is  taking place on the
>> Freenode #evergreen IRC channel as well.
>> >>
>> >> I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would
>> be valid, but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be
>> done in parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen.
>> >>
>> >> [1]
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >> [2]
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >> [3]
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >> [4]
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >> [5]
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Galen
>> >> --
>> >> Galen Charlton
>> >> Implementation and IT Manager
>> >> Equinox Open Library Initiative
>> >> gmc at equinoxOLI.org
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >> phone: 877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
>> >> direct: 770-709-5581
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Evergreen-general mailing list
>> >> Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Evergreen-general mailing list
>> >> Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=>
>>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Evergreen-general mailing list
>> > Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> >
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=
>> > <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Evergreen-general mailing list
>> > Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> >
>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-general
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Sharp, PINES System Administrator
> ------------------------------
>
> Georgia Public Library Service
>
> 2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341
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> (404) 235-7147 | csharp at georgialibraries.org
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