[Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?

Tue Jun 1 09:02:48 EDT 2021

I like both the fact that they’re open to feedback on their policy, and also that the process seems to be a pretty transparent and known quantity.  Thanks for having the “brief chat” and following up on it with the pull request.

Ruth Frasur
Evergreen Development and Support Administrator
Indiana State Library
140 N. Senate Ave.
Indianapolis, IN 46204
(317) 460-7556

From: Evergreen-general <evergreen-general-bounces at list.evergreen-ils.org> On Behalf Of Rogan Hamby
Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 8:40 AM
To: Evergreen Discussion Group <evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org>
Subject: Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?

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FWIW I had a brief chat with one of the administrators of OFTC and they said they are open to pull requests on their policy.  I have opened one adding the following language: "Discrimination based on faith, ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or age is not permitted."

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 12:18 PM Chris Sharp <csharp at georgialibraries.org<mailto:csharp at georgialibraries.org>> wrote:
I have a preference for Libera because it seems like the logical place to land along with the other Free/Open Source Software projects that have already done so, including Code4Lib.  I don't have much experience with OFTC so I don't have a strong opinion for or against it.

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 1:19 PM Jason Stephenson <jason at sigio.com<mailto:jason at sigio.com>> wrote:
Hi, all.

I want to add that I, like Dan, am not too concerned about explicit
values statements. I don't think they matter for much. Actions speak
louder than words.

Jason Stephenson

On 5/28/21 9:39 AM, Dan Wells wrote:
> I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as silly
> creatures.
>
> For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for
> distance's sake".  It is recognizing that both sides of this split are
> hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being
> IRC infrastructure.  I've never given it 2 minutes of thought before
> this, and may not ever again.  It just doesn't matter that much.  Which
> network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background
> noise?  That's all I want.
>
> Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say,
> small potatoes.  Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any
> evidence of being discriminatory?  What would that even mean in the
> context of an IRC host?  It is a moot point, and it need not be elevated
> into some issue of prime importance.  Is this what life has been reduced
> to?  Is this as good as it gets?
>
> Dan
>
>
> Daniel Wells
> Head of Technology Services
> Hekman Library, Calvin University
> 616.526.7133
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Evergreen-general
> <evergreen-general-bounces at list.evergreen-ils.org<mailto:evergreen-general-bounces at list.evergreen-ils.org>> on behalf of Mike
> Rylander <mrylander at gmail.com<mailto:mrylander at gmail.com>>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM
> *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group <evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org<mailto:evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?
> I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning.
> Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both
> technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO.
>
> I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument
> that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid
> the appearance of taking sides.  This isn't analogous to a divorce
> where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project
> WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated
> values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision.
>
> I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in
> the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values
> of the Evergreen project.  That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well,
> and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to
> all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features
> rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think.
>
> --
> Mike Rylander
> Research and Development Manager
> Equinox Open Library Initiative
> 1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
> work: miker at equinoxOLI.org<mailto:miker at equinoxOLI.org>
> personal: mrylander at gmail.com<mailto:mrylander at gmail.com>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=>
>
>
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <JBoyer at equinoxoli.org<mailto:JBoyer at equinoxoli.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about whether we should move, only where we should land.
>>
>> I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few reasons:
>> 1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used to managing a large network
>> 2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re basically at feature parity with what we expect
>> 3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as Galen mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their management policies will be quite robust.
>> 4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects have already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs, ZNC, Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I  suspect a number of large projects are already represented there
> should one actually search them out.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> --
>> Jason Boyer
>> Senior System Administrator
>> Equinox Open Library Initiative
>> JBoyer at equinoxOLI.org<mailto:JBoyer at equinoxOLI.org>
>> +1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457)
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=>
>
>>
>> On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <gmc at equinoxoli.org<mailto:gmc at equinoxoli.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for years. However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response to a dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2].
>>
>> A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib, have migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded by the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for years and hosts, among other groups,  #koha). However, Freenode has apparently started locking channels that
> mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3]
>>
>> I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently,  I suggest that we consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC.
> #evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks.
>>
>> Here are some pros and cons I see:
>>
>> Libera.Chat
>> ---------------
>> Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly for over a decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith, ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or age. [4]
>> Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with other web IRC services.
>>
>> OFTC
>> -------
>> Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes with a built-in web chat client.
>> Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination clauses. [5]
>>
>> I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the Evergreen Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on whether to leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or Libera.Chat. Discussion about the IRC network is  taking place on the Freenode #evergreen IRC channel as well.
>>
>> I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would be valid, but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be done in parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen.
>>
>> [1] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=>
>
>> [2] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=>
>
>> [3] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=>
>
>> [4] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=>
>
>> [5] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Galen
>> --
>> Galen Charlton
>> Implementation and IT Manager
>> Equinox Open Library Initiative
>> gmc at equinoxOLI.org<mailto:gmc at equinoxOLI.org>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=>
>
>> phone: 877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
>> direct: 770-709-5581
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