[Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?

Mon May 31 12:18:03 EDT 2021

I have a preference for Libera because it seems like the logical place to
land along with the other Free/Open Source Software projects that have
already done so, including Code4Lib.  I don't have much experience with
OFTC so I don't have a strong opinion for or against it.

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 1:19 PM Jason Stephenson <jason at sigio.com> wrote:

> Hi, all.
>
> I want to add that I, like Dan, am not too concerned about explicit
> values statements. I don't think they matter for much. Actions speak
> louder than words.
>
> Jason Stephenson
>
> On 5/28/21 9:39 AM, Dan Wells wrote:
> > I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as silly
> > creatures.
> >
> > For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for
> > distance's sake".  It is recognizing that both sides of this split are
> > hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being
> > IRC infrastructure.  I've never given it 2 minutes of thought before
> > this, and may not ever again.  It just doesn't matter that much.  Which
> > network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background
> > noise?  That's all I want.
> >
> > Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say,
> > small potatoes.  Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any
> > evidence of being discriminatory?  What would that even mean in the
> > context of an IRC host?  It is a moot point, and it need not be elevated
> > into some issue of prime importance.  Is this what life has been reduced
> > to?  Is this as good as it gets?
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > Daniel Wells
> > Head of Technology Services
> > Hekman Library, Calvin University
> > 616.526.7133
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Evergreen-general
> > <evergreen-general-bounces at list.evergreen-ils.org> on behalf of Mike
> > Rylander <mrylander at gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM
> > *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group <
> evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC
> network?
> > I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning.
> > Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both
> > technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO.
> >
> > I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument
> > that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid
> > the appearance of taking sides.  This isn't analogous to a divorce
> > where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project
> > WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated
> > values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision.
> >
> > I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in
> > the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values
> > of the Evergreen project.  That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well,
> > and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to
> > all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features
> > rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think.
> >
> > --
> > Mike Rylander
> > Research and Development Manager
> > Equinox Open Library Initiative
> > 1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
> > work: miker at equinoxOLI.org
> > personal: mrylander at gmail.com
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <JBoyer at equinoxoli.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about
> whether we should move, only where we should land.
> >>
> >> I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few
> reasons:
> >> 1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used to
> managing a large network
> >> 2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re basically
> at feature parity with what we expect
> >> 3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as Galen
> mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their management
> policies will be quite robust.
> >> 4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects have
> already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs, ZNC,
> Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed
> incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I  suspect a number of large
> projects are already represented there
> > should one actually search them out.
> >>
> >> Jason
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jason Boyer
> >> Senior System Administrator
> >> Equinox Open Library Initiative
> >> JBoyer at equinoxOLI.org
> >> +1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457)
> >>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=>
>
> >
> >>
> >> On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <gmc at equinoxoli.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for
> years. However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response
> to a dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2].
> >>
> >> A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib, have
> migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded by
> the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for
> years and hosts, among other groups,  #koha). However, Freenode has
> apparently started locking channels that
> > mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3]
> >>
> >> I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively
> undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss
> their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find
> commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently,  I suggest that we
> consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC.
> > #evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks.
> >>
> >> Here are some pros and cons I see:
> >>
> >> Libera.Chat
> >> ---------------
> >> Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly for
> over a decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith,
> ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or
> age. [4]
> >> Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with
> other web IRC services.
> >>
> >> OFTC
> >> -------
> >> Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes
> with a built-in web chat client.
> >> Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination
> clauses. [5]
> >>
> >> I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the
> Evergreen Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on
> whether to leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or
> Libera.Chat. Discussion about the IRC network is  taking place on the
> Freenode #evergreen IRC channel as well.
> >>
> >> I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would be
> valid, but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be done
> in parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen.
> >>
> >> [1]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=>
>
> >
> >> [2]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=>
>
> >
> >> [3]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=>
>
> >
> >> [4]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=>
>
> >
> >> [5]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=>
>
> >
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Galen
> >> --
> >> Galen Charlton
> >> Implementation and IT Manager
> >> Equinox Open Library Initiative
> >> gmc at equinoxOLI.org
> >>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=>
>
> >
> >> phone: 877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
> >> direct: 770-709-5581
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Evergreen-general mailing list
> >> Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
> >>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=>
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Evergreen-general mailing list
> >> Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
> >>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=>
>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Evergreen-general mailing list
> > Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=>
>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Evergreen-general mailing list
> > Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
> > http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-general
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Evergreen-general mailing list
> Evergreen-general at list.evergreen-ils.org
> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/evergreen-general
>

-- 

Chris Sharp, PINES System Administrator
------------------------------

Georgia Public Library Service

2872 Woodcock Blvd, Suite 250 | Atlanta, GA 30341

(404) 235-7147 | csharp at georgialibraries.org

<https://www.facebook.com/georgialibraries>
<https://www.twitter.com/georgialibs>
<https://www.instagram.com/georgialibraries/>

Join our email list <http://georgialibraries.org/subscription> for stories
of Georgia libraries making an impact in our communities.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.evergreen-ils.org/pipermail/evergreen-general/attachments/20210531/e525b53c/attachment-0001.html>