[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?

[Lazar, Alexey Vladimirovich]

If by "siloing" you mean that parts of the community with interest in a specialized topic (which may or may not be of immediate interest to the rest of the community) can discuss issues on that topic using a mailing list dedicated to that topic, I'm not bother by it ;)  It's not like we are talking about a password-protected invitation-only secret list with no public logging.

I did not get the sense that the community is currently siloed in any way, even though I can count at least 10 mailing lists currently in existence.   I subscribed to the ones of interest to me.  Having separate lists allows me to automatically filter the incoming messages and pay more attention to the topics of more immediate interest.  Considering 100s of emails I get per day, that is actually very helpful.

Alexey Lazar
PALS
Information System Developer and Integrator
507-389-2907
http://www.mnpals.org/

On May 4, 2012, at 16:15 , Lori Bowen Ayre wrote:

> 
> I'd like to see the SysAdmin stuff live on the General List because that is the one list that we encourage everyone to participate in. 
> 
> On the page that describes our mailing lists (http://evergreen-ils.org/listserv.php), the Dev list is listed a the "Technical Discussion Mailing List" but then it is described (as Yamil notes) as a place for "patches and technical discussions about Evergreen and OpenSRF development" which suggests it is really more about development than all things technical.  In addition, the name of the list (once you've joined) is "Evergreen Development Discussion List."   
> 
> If we were to move forward with having SysAdmin stuff on the General List, I would suggest changing the descriptions to something like this:
> 
> A)  Evergreen General Discussion List
> This is the primary list for the Evergreen community -- Evergreen users, Evergreen Sys Admins, Developers, librarians, library workers, fellow travelers, or people just plain curious about Evergreen are encouraged to subscribe. Traffic on this list is moderate to heavy.
> 
> Posts range from discussions about possible new features to questions about implementation and configuration. There is no such thing as a "dumb" question or comment for the Evergreen general list. If you're thinking the question, chances are, you're in good company. Ask, and you give other members of the Evergreen community an opportunity to share their growing knowledge.
> 
> Because it is a list used by so many different groups of people, please use the SUBJECT field to clearly identify the topic so that the right people are sure to read your post.
> 
> B) Evergreen Development Discussion List
> This list is for developers or for people who wish to communicate with developers about patches, features, bugs, and enhancement.  The list is for very technical discussions about Evergreen and OpenSRF development. Messages and responses are often in the shorthand common to this culture. Traffic on this list is light.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Yamil Suarez <ysuarez at berklee.edu> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> 
> I just wanted to finally weigh in on this topic. For now I am partially siding with Ben Shum in that we do not create a new list because "silo'ing" concerns, but I always though that it was never clear if I should use the dev or the general lists for my sysadmin questions.
> 
> For example, see below for how the two lists are currently described on the site
>        http://evergreen-ils.org/listserv.php
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------
> A)  Evergreen General Discussion List
> This is the general-topic, (usually) non-technical list for the Evergreen community -- Evergreen users, librarians, library workers, library users, developers, fellow travelers, or people just plain curious about Evergreen. As of October, 2008, this list had over 500 members. Its traffic is moderate.
> 
> General means general. Posts range from discussions about possible new features to quick questions about implementation. There is no such thing as a "dumb" question or comment for the Evergreen general list. If you're thinking the question, chances are, you're in good company. Ask, and you give other members of the Evergreen community an opportunity to share their growing knowledge.
> 
> B) Evergreen Technical Discussion List
> This list is for patches and technical discussions about Evergreen and OpenSRF development. Messages and responses are often in the shorthand common to this culture.
> ----------------
> 
> 
> So which ever way we go with this, I think we should make small updates to the description of which ever lists that we end up with to make it more clear where sysadmin questions should be send to.
> 
> 
> Finally, thanks to Chris for setting up a meeting to talk about this.
> 
> Yamil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 1, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Ben Shum wrote:
> 
> I'm -1 to this proposal.
> 
> For many years, I've mused with other Evergreen system administrators on the issues facing our particular role and areas for discussion.  The idea of making our own mailing list seemed like a good idea at many points in those discussions, and if you asked me a few years ago, I would have said yes.
> 
> But here are some potential concerns I have now:
> 
> While our role within our organizations may be to find the best practices for implementing/running an Evergreen system (and all the related areas of interest noted), we can also have a key role to play in Evergreen's overall development.  As system administrators, we are often at the cutting edge of testing, bug reporting, and troubleshooting how Evergreen performs in the field.  We can provide invaluable feedback to the Evergreen developers when we discuss our sys-admin issues in the existing lists / IRC.
> 
> Creating a separate list introduces the possibility that more information can become lost between groups if people do not subscribe to every list.  While of course, many of us would likely be signed up to these multiple lists and potentially act as representatives between groups, I do not like to see the burden of communication between various lists/groups to become a necessary conscious act on behalf of those subscribed to several lists.
> 
> Like say for example:
> 
> John Smith has an installation problem and mentions it only on the sys admin list.  But it turns out to be an actual issue with the Evergreen code itself and we have to involve developers to get it fixed for everyone in the community.  Do we then have to take the originally reported issue from the sys admin list and forward it to the dev list and discuss solutions?  The extra time and potential for lost information/facts gives me concerns that having that extra layer of communication may prove unwieldy.
> 
> Alternatively, what if someone posted a question to both mailing lists (sys admin and dev) and different people respond on each thread (based on whichever list they were subscribed) and the conversation becomes fractured between two lists?  How does everything get put back together in a nice ordered way for the next generation of users searching for information / learning.
> 
> To summarize, in my opinion, the system administrators while definitely having their own set of issues and topics of discussion are still a core part of the overall Evergreen development community and we should participate using the same areas for discussion such as the dev mailing list and IRC so that we don't miss anything or leave anything out of the mainstream Evergreen community.  The main thing I would want to change at this point in time is perhaps the wording used to describe the dev mailing list to expand beyond just technical code/patches, but to be a broader description and reinforce the "technical discussion list" title.  Unless of course, the developers tell us that they'd prefer to keep that list to talking only about real development only...  ;)
> 
> -- Ben
> 
> On 4/30/2012 8:11 PM, Justin Hopkins wrote:
> We just wrapped up the post-conference systems administrator training,
> which was awesome. Afterwards we were talking about the utility of a
> new discussion list focused on Evergreen systems administration.
> 
> I think the topic is deep enough to warrant a list, and if this group
> is any indication there is also sufficient interest. Systems
> administration (troubleshooting server config issues,
> installing/setting up Evergreen, using git, performance tuning,
> network issues, cluster configuration, security, etc) seems to be an
> area that deserves it's own forum. I've received plenty of great help
> on those topics in IRC, which I'm very appreciative of, but let's face
> it - IRC is and probably always will be the domain of developers.
> 
> I'm hoping that if enough people on this list express an interest that
> someone (Chris Sharp?) could create such a list. So let's hear it
> sysads - should we create the "missing list"?
> 
> Regards,
> Justin Hopkins
> Coordinator, IT&  Web Services
> 
> MOBIUS Consortium Office
> c: 573-808-2309
> 
> --sent from a mobile device--
> 
> 
> -- 
> Benjamin Shum
> Open Source Software Coordinator
> Bibliomation, Inc.
> 32 Crest Road
> Middlebury, CT 06762
> 203-577-4070, ext. 113
> 
> 
>