[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] Deleting Patron Accounts - AND books?

Fri Aug 7 10:34:59 EDT 2015

Martha,

 Thank you for an example.   I should try to give more myself.  :-)

  But there is a bit of a flaw of logic in what you are stating - at least from our perspective.   For almost ALL items we delete, we do check the circ history first.   MOST items we do delete are items that have NOT circulated.   Ergo, they will not have any data in the circ table.  Or should not.  Also, we do not care about historical data really longer than about 1 year ago.  Maybe 2 years at best.  And certainly not for items we have deleted.   Because we have deleted them with purpose, we don't need them to still be hanging around in the background cluttering up the data for actual, real, current, on-the-shelf books.   It now really bugs me that deleted items are messing up my stats about circulation as well.   

  In the case of lost, damaged or really old books, if they are deleted, I don't care how they circulated prior to deletion.   They were well used obviously, but it is of no concern after it is removed.  

 However, I DO see these concerns are real for other situations.   We don't want to impose our concerns over those of others.   That is why I think it would be good to have an OPTION to fully and completely delete records with impunity.     It could even be something that is done in batches AFTER all stats and data have been retrieved that is needed.    That way, you can be sure to have full knowledge of what you are doing, but in the end, your system is cleaned of all the drek.

   Here is an example that just presented itself where I would be very concerned if all the data hung around our system for all eternity.   We have just now completed entering in items to a "collection" of materials that might be considered on any other campus to be a department library.  We are doing this as an experiment and don't know how long it will last.  We did it out of courtesy to another academic department on campus.   They house the materials in another building that only their students use.  Most of their materials are pamphlets or flyers or other things of that kind.    But when they decide that they don't want to use our catalog any more, or want to get rid of all or most of their items, then what?   They will still all be hanging around in the background forever?    They will count in our circulation stats?    I'd rather not.    If they get removed, I'd like them to be removed completely and permanently.   Never to be seen or heard from again.  

  Thanks!

Jennifer
-------------------------------------------------- 
Jennifer Walz, MLS - Head of ILS Confundity
Kinlaw Library -  Asbury University 
One Macklem Drive, Wilmore, KY 40390 
859-858-3511 ext. 2269 
jlwalz at asbury.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Open-ils-general [mailto:open-ils-general-bounces at list.georgialibraries.org] On Behalf Of Martha Driscoll
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 11:15 AM
To: open-ils-general at list.georgialibraries.org
Subject: Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] Deleting Patron Accounts - AND books?

Hi Jennifer,
The way the system is currently designed, the expectation is that the copy data will be available even if the people want to delete a record.

The circulation tables records each circulation transaction.  That table is used in reports that need to count circulation statistics.  The table does not record specific information about the copy that was circulated, but it does point back to the specific copy.

Let's say a professor wants to know how the eastern religion books circulated over the last 5 years.  Maybe the college put some money into that program and bought a lot of material.  Maybe some of the copies were damaged or lost and removed from the collection over the span of that 5 years.  If the copies are gone when you run a circulation report, you won't be able to count by things like copy call number or copy statistical category.  That data would have been removed with the copy. 
  The same is true for bibliographic data.  If the circulation transaction can't find the original bib, then categorizing your statistics by bib data won't be possible. The circulations will still be present in that table, but drilling down to specific details will be lost.

Martha Driscoll
Systems Manager
North of Boston Library Exchange
Danvers, Massachusetts
www.noblenet.org

On 8/6/2015 9:39 AM, Walz, Jennifer wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Yup.  That is precisely it.   I don’t want to have to remember to filter
> for “deleted”.   That seems really a weird expectation, when it should
> have been deleted. (meaning it is not there) J
>
>    And it clutters up the server.  I like clean systems and only the 
> stuff we have is there and nothing else.
>
> And we get weird and random empty records that we can’t figure out how
> they got there.   Did someone make a mistake?   Did the system get
> confused?   Did we do something wrong?     Then fixing that is just a
> pain.   Would be nice to blast everything and just start over.  With the
> phantom records hanging around the system, you can’t really do that.
>
> Maybe we could have a report run that “clears” the system only when you
> run it.   It could be an admin only function and run when it is deemed
> appropriate. Our previous system had reports like that.  It was lovely.
>
>    Thanks!
>
> Jennifer
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Jennifer Walz, MLS - Head of ILS Random Weirdness Kinlaw Library - 
> *Asbury University* One Macklem Drive, Wilmore, KY 40390
> 859-858-3511 ext. 2269
> jlwalz at asbury.edu
>
> *From:*Open-ils-general
> [mailto:open-ils-general-bounces at list.georgialibraries.org] *On Behalf 
> Of *Mike Rylander
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:43 AM
> *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group
> *Subject:* Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] Deleting Patron Accounts - AND books?
>
> Jennifer,
>
> Where, other than reports that lack a filter on "Is deleted", are 
> these items showing up?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> --
>
> Mike Rylander
>
>   | President
>
>   | Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts
>
>   | phone:  1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
>
>   | email: miker at esilibrary.com <mailto:miker at esilibrary.com>
>
>   | web: http://www.esilibrary.com
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Walz, Jennifer <jlwalz at asbury.edu 
> <mailto:jlwalz at asbury.edu>> wrote:
>
> All –
>
>    I completely understand!   This is a valuable option for those folks
> who need this.  But there should ALSO be an option for completely and
> utterly obliterating the record – if you need to.    We just REMOVED
> about 600 books from our collection (remember that we are an academic
> library) and we never want to see them again.   We expect that they are
> weeded and gone.   But no.   They are still hanging around the system to
> clutter things up.   And confuse things too.   That is why we are
> experiencing so much problem with our items we are moving around into a
> new Children’s collection.   We weeded, we merged, and now we are
> changing call numbers.   But the “deleted” stuff keeps showing up when
> we THOUGHT we deleted it and never want to see it again.
>
>    I’m NOT saying to remove the option to “hide” items in case you 
> want to use them again or in the case where there are items attached or fines
> or such.   BUT, it would be really great to also have the option to
> really and finally REMOVE items from the system.  There are times when 
> that is needed as well.
>
>    Thanks!
>
> Jennifer
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Jennifer Walz, MLS - Head of ILS Ministrations Kinlaw Library - 
> *Asbury University* One Macklem Drive, Wilmore, KY 40390
> 859-858-3511 ext. 2269 <tel:859-858-3511%20ext.%202269> 
> jlwalz at asbury.edu <mailto:jlwalz at asbury.edu>
>
> *From:*Open-ils-general
> [mailto:open-ils-general-bounces at list.georgialibraries.org
> <mailto:open-ils-general-bounces at list.georgialibraries.org>] *On 
> Behalf Of *Rogan Hamby
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:10 AM
> *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group
> *Subject:* Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] Deleting Patron Accounts - AND books?
>
> Oh yeah, they reappear like fleas.  It's one reason I don't like 
> obliterating, things that folks are sure they never want to see again 
> one day suddenly are desirable the next.
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Jason Stephenson 
> <jstephenson at mvlc.org <mailto:jstephenson at mvlc.org>> wrote:
>
> Funny thing about deleted copies is they come back!
>
> Just last week I was asked to undelete about 1 dozen copies that 
> showed up in the returns.
>
> If you really delete them from the database, you can't do that.
>
> Just some food for thought.
>
> Jason
> --
> Jason Stephenson
> Assistant Director for Technology Services Merrimack Valley Library 
> Consortium
> 4 High ST, Suite 175
> North Andover, MA 01845
> Phone: 978-557-5891 <tel:978-557-5891>
> Email: jstephenson at mvlc.org <mailto:jstephenson at mvlc.org>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Rogan Hamby, MLS, CCNP, MIA
>
> Managers Headquarters Library and Reference Services,
>
> York County Library System
>
> “You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to 
> suit me.”
> ― C.S. Lewis <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1069006.C_S_Lewis>
>