[Eg-oversight-board] Fwd: Evergreen participation in Outreachy?

Thu Sep 8 11:55:30 EDT 2016

I'm with Kathy on this.

>>Bringing this thread back to my original question, I'm not sure
participating in a short-term internship program is the right way to grow
the developer community. It's helpful in getting more new programmers to
learn how to work in an open-source community and, from our successful GSoC
experiences, it has led to new features for the software. I think these are
all great things. However, I'm not quite sure what the hook is to keep
those former interns active in our community. If we had a mentorship
program that worked with people who are planning to or already working in
libraries, I might feel differently because there is more of an interest to
stay involved. Even if they don't stay involved, they will continue to
remember their Evergreen experience at some future point when their
libraries are exploring ILS options.<<

It's always nice to get more people involved on any level, and I'm
certainly not opposed to internship opportunities, but I also think that a
mentorship problem would be much more valuable if we can find a way to make
that happen.

Terran

Terran McCanna
PINES Program Manager
Georgia Public Library Service
1800 Century Place, Suite 150
Atlanta, GA 30345
404-235-7138
tmccanna at georgialibraries.org

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org> wrote:

> Thank you Lori. That's very generous.
>
> I'll defer to the current EOB members to the question of whether they want
> to pursue this. However, as I mentioned, if we do move forward, we need to
> make the decision fairly soon since there are several other steps that need
> to be taken to determine if the community has volunteers interested in
> making this happen.
>
> Kathy
>
> On 09/07/2016 03:23 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>
> Thanks, Kathy.  And before I read your previous posts, what I was going to
> offer was $500 to offset the costs of being a part of Outreachy.  But I
> wonder if we could do it with the caveat that the intern has to have some
> library connection.....
>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Lori Bowen Ayre //
> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
> (707) 763-6869 // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>
> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Lori,
>>
>> Sorry for the delayed response.
>>
>> Yes, I think it's always helpful for libraries to try to find additional
>> avenues for getting development done. However, I wanted to clarify that I
>> wasn't saying there isn't a real need to see growth in the Evergreen
>> developer community. Bringing more active developers into the community
>> would indeed help to alleviate bottlenecks since more people would be
>> working on the code. It also provides more options to libraries, which is
>> always a good thing.
>>
>> Despite the fact that recent releases include features important to
>> MassLNC, some of which came from our own contributors and some of which
>> were sponsored, we also have others that are taking longer than we would
>> have liked. What I was trying to say in my earlier email, though, is that
>> the inability to move a particular project forward is not the same thing as
>> saying that all development unrelated to the web client has come to a halt.
>> It's frustrating when you have to struggle and wait to bring a new feature
>> to fruition. I know, I've been there. But the software does continue to
>> grow and, in addition to bringing new features in every release, has also
>> become more secure for patrons over the past year.
>>
>> Bringing this thread back to my original question, I'm not sure
>> participating in a short-term internship program is the right way to grow
>> the developer community. It's helpful in getting more new programmers to
>> learn how to work in an open-source community and, from our successful GSoC
>> experiences, it has led to new features for the software. I think these are
>> all great things. However, I'm not quite sure what the hook is to keep
>> those former interns active in our community. If we had a mentorship
>> program that worked with people who are planning to or already working in
>> libraries, I might feel differently because there is more of an interest to
>> stay involved. Even if they don't stay involved, they will continue to
>> remember their Evergreen experience at some future point when their
>> libraries are exploring ILS options.
>>
>> Bringing in more libraries might also lead to more options because those
>> libraries could have more technical staff who can contribute to the project
>> or they may create a larger market, making it more viable for developers to
>> create their own Evergreen development services company. This is part of
>> the reason for forming the Outreach Committee - to help us get the word out
>> about how our libraries are succeeding with Evergreen.
>>
>> What I need to know now, though, is if there is interest from the EOB in
>> pursuing Outreachy for this session. If there is interest in funding this
>> internship, we need to also reach out to the community to see if anyone
>> will volunteer to organize the program and mentor students. If there isn't
>> interest, I need to get back to the Outreachy folks to let them know.
>>
>> Kathy
>>
>> On 09/02/2016 04:38 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback, Kathy. Based on the release notes, it does look
>> like some important progress is being made. Be advised that I was reporting
>> what I'm hearing from people as I talk to various Evergreen community
>> members so it is a perception out there even if there is some good progress
>> being made.  I wonder if it has more to do with who's enhancements are
>> represented in the release notes. If a library has had something on a wish
>> list for a long time and they haven't made any progress bringing it to
>> fruition, I imagine they would be frustrated.
>>
>> So maybe part of the problem is that people don't know what they need to
>> do to increase the likelihood of a desired enhancement getting the right
>> kind of attention. That might be another angle to focus on....is there a
>> resource out there that provides some guidance about the process for
>> getting an enhancement into the code? From my point of view, the libraries
>> seem to think the solution to getting an enhancement is to hire Equinox to
>> do it.  So, it is possible that many libraries have created their own
>> bottleneck by relying on only one development team.
>>
>> Do you think you feel better about the progress being made with Evergreen
>> because of MassLNC's very active involvement in the development and
>> developer community? My belief is that you and your team represent a model
>> that others should be replicating.  Do you think that if more consortia
>> were doing the kinds of work you and the folks in Massachusetts are doing
>> in terms of documentation and coding, we wouldn't have some of the
>> bottlenecks?
>>
>> Lori
>>
>> P.S. I don't want to give the impression I'm picking on Equinox. I
>> appreciate all the work they do for sure.  I'm looking for feedback because
>> I want to a) support Evergreen and do whatever I can to contribute to its
>> success as I do my consulting work and b) see if my ideas of what would
>> make a difference seem right to those of you in the trenches! So, feedback
>> appreciated online or offline.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>> (707) 763-6869 // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>
>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Lori,
>>>
>>> We actually had a discussion at our most recent dev meeting about
>>> building mentorship opportunities for coders and will be continuing that
>>> discussion at the hack-a-way in November. It's something that I know
>>> MassLNC is very interested in seeing happen, and I'm sure others in the
>>> community feel the same.
>>>
>>> However, after working firsthand with the OPW program and observing
>>> closely our previous efforts with GSoC, I'm not sure those programs are the
>>> best fit for this community. I think those programs work very well in
>>> open-source communities where there is a lot of volunteer interest because
>>> the software is something that gets broad use in business or in personal
>>> life. Those volunteers have an incentive to keep contributing to the
>>> community after the internship because they have a vested interest in
>>> seeing the software succeed.
>>>
>>> Although most of our previous interns have certainly loved libraries,
>>> they aren't working in them and, therefore, have no vested interest in
>>> continuing in the community once their internship is complete. My personal
>>> opinion (and others may disagree with me) is that we might have better
>>> success if we work with people who are already working in libraries or are
>>> involved in MLS programs.
>>>
>>> I do want to take issue with the perception that "all other development
>>> comes to a halt." I'm looking at the draft release notes for 2.11 -
>>> https://evergreen-ils.org/documentation/release/RELEASE_NOTES_2_11.html
>>> and the release notes for our March 2.10 release -
>>> https://evergreen-ils.org/documentation/release/RELEASE_NOTES_2_10.html.
>>> This doesn't look like halted development to me.
>>>
>>> In particular, I would like to point out my personal favorite from the
>>> release notes, the activity metric for relevance ranking (AKA statistically
>>> generated record ratings) that I think will be a big boon to searches
>>> performed in the catalog. This was no small project and was completed at
>>> the same time work was being performed on the web client. In addition to
>>> the web client, MassLNC has projects lined up to improve cross-reference
>>> support and to make much-needed improvements to search. I'm sure others
>>> have projects coming down the pike as well.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying that the web client hasn't taken up a lot of developer
>>> resources over the past couple of years, that I'm not also concerned about
>>> growing developer resources in the community, and that I'm not looking
>>> forward to the day when we the web client is not putting such a strain on
>>> our existing developer resources. But I do want to point out that the
>>> software is moving forward even as the web client project proceeds.
>>>
>>> Please understand that the web client is a very large project that,
>>> while resource intensive, will ultimately bring many benefits to Evergreen
>>> users. It's large, and it has to be large if we want to see it done right.
>>> I applaud Equinox and the larger developer community for taking the
>>> necessary steps to make the big infrastructure changes rather than bolting
>>> on small fixes that might lead to short-term happiness, but will not bring
>>> the larger improvement that is needed in our software.
>>>
>>> Kathy
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09/02/2016 02:13 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kathy and all,
>>>
>>> I just went through and read through the thread about participating in
>>> this the last time it came up.  And I have to say it was disheartening.
>>> Has anything been done around the idea Grace raised - to survey people who
>>> have attempted to get involved in coding for Evergreen to find out what the
>>> impediments were?  I think that would be very fruitful....if you can find
>>> them.
>>>
>>> I have a perspective on this topic I'd like to share.  I'm working with
>>> a couple Evergreen consortia right now and in the process I'm talking with
>>> many other consortia on Evergreen (and other ILSs including Koha) and there
>>> is a consistent theme that Evergreen development is too slow and that this
>>> is beginning to make some consortia question whether Evergreen really makes
>>> sense for them.  It isn't uncommon for me hear that people are frustrated
>>> that it is taking so long to deliver the web client and that other
>>> enhancements are being tabled until that is done. And it starts to feel
>>> strikingly similar to what it was like with a commercial ILS where requests
>>> for enhancements were ignored.
>>>
>>> I think this is because there so few developers. I know Equinox is
>>> focusing their energies on the web client but that shouldn't mean all other
>>> development comes to a halt.  There should be more human resources involved
>>> so that one company focusing on one big component shouldn't halt progress
>>> on everything else.  I know this same thing happened when KCLS first got
>>> involved and was able to monopolize the the limited developer community to
>>> focus on their priorities. And I have to say that I personally attempted to
>>> bring in more developers to the fold (as part of that KCLS initiative) so
>>> that instead of monopolizing the limited resources, the end result would be
>>> to expand and enrich the pool of developers.  But that turned out to be
>>> VERY hard to do. And the people I got interested in development and who
>>> tried to get involved...all gave up - discouraged and frustrated.
>>>
>>> So, I'd like to suggest it should be a very high priority to find a
>>> better way to attract, on-board, and retain people who would like to get
>>> involved in the Evergreen community on the coding level.  I don't think
>>> waiting on delivery of the web client is an adequate strategy.
>>>
>>> Lori
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>>> (707) 763-6869 <%28707%29%20763-6869> // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>>
>>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Outreachy (formerly Outreach Program for Women) is happening again. The
>>>> administrators are asking if there is any interest in participating from
>>>> the Evergreen community.
>>>>
>>>> I'm also linking to the EOB thread from the last time this question was
>>>> raised - http://list.evergreen-ils.org/pipermail/eg-oversight-board/2
>>>> 016-February/001209.html.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I stand by the comments I made in that previous thread.
>>>>
>>>> Kathy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject: Evergreen participation in Outreachy?
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 14:11:16 -0700
>>>> From: Sarah Sharp <saharabeara at gmail.com> <saharabeara at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org> <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>>> CC: outreachy-admins at gnome.org
>>>>
>>>> Hi Kathy,
>>>>
>>>> The Outreachy program is looking for organizations to participate in
>>>> round 13.  Do you think Evergreen would be willing to participate again?
>>>> The round will open on September 12, and the sooner Evergreen is listed,
>>>> the more likely you'll get strong applicants.
>>>>
>>>> Sarah Sharp
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sarah A Sharp <sarah at thesharps.us> <sarah at thesharps.us> wrote:
>>>> > Dear coordinators and mentors,
>>>> >
>>>> > Thank you for being a part of our outreach program! The next round for
>>>> > Outreachy is scheduled to open on September 12, with an application deadline
>>>> > of October 17. Internships will run from December 6 to March 6.
>>>> >
>>>> > If your organization is interested in participating in the next round,
>>>> > please update your landing page, and let us know by September 7 if you will
>>>> > participate. Organization coordinators and mentors, please coordinate on the
>>>> > following:
>>>> >
>>>> >  * Review set up information at
>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/GettingStarted
>>>> >  * Secure funding for your org to sponsor at least one intern ($6,500)
>>>> >  * Update your org's landing page
>>>> >  * List your project ideas and recruit other mentors
>>>> >  * Let us know at outreachy-admins at gnome.org that your org is participating
>>>> >  * Start spreading the word about your org's internships - no need to wait
>>>> > for September 12
>>>> >
>>>> > We plan on having a twitter chat about Outreachy on Wednesday, September 21,
>>>> > to spotlight the organizations that are participating, and allow orgs to
>>>> > answer any questions people have. Participation in the chat is optional, but
>>>> > if you do want to participate, being able to link to a blog post that
>>>> > describes why you're passionate about your project would help us promote
>>>> > your project.
>>>> >
>>>> > The updated resources for the upcoming round are:
>>>> >
>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/2016/DecemberMarch - a page with a
>>>> > timeline and participating organizations listing.
>>>> >
>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/InfoForOrgs and
>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/InfoForOrgs/Proposal - these pages
>>>> > have motivation and information for sponsorship; you can use and customize
>>>> > the text from the Proposal page to approach companies about sponsorship
>>>> > (please do a quick check with Karen, Marina, and myself at
>>>> > outreachy-admins at gnome.org alias first to make sure we coordinate any
>>>> > efforts to approach the same company).
>>>> >
>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/GettingStarted - please review
>>>> > this page when you are updating the landing page for your organization.
>>>> >
>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Contracts - please make all people who
>>>> > volunteer as mentors in your organization aware that they will need to sign
>>>> > a contract similar to this to be a mentor in the program. Interns cannot be
>>>> > paid until their mentors sign the contract, so it is important that mentors
>>>> > sign the contract as soon as the application system opens on September 12.
>>>> >
>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Eligibility - last year we expanded the
>>>> > Outreachy program to include underrepresented people of color
>>>> > underrepresented in tech in the U.S.  Outreachy continues to be open
>>>> > internationally to women (cis and trans), trans men, and genderqueer people.
>>>> >
>>>> > Please contact Karen, Marina, and myself at outreachy-admins at gnome.org alias
>>>> > if you have any questions. We hope you can join us for this round!
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> > Sarah Sharp
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ eg-oversight-board
>>>> mailing list eg-oversight-board at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/eg-ov
>>>> ersight-board
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kathy Lussier
>>> Project Coordinator
>>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>>
>>> --
>> Kathy Lussier
>> Project Coordinator
>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>
>> --
> Kathy Lussier
> Project Coordinator
> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>
>
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