[Eg-oversight-board] Fwd: Evergreen participation in Outreachy?

Thu Sep 8 16:12:30 EDT 2016

Agree on the mentorship vs. internship.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Terran McCanna <
tmccanna at georgialibraries.org> wrote:

> I'm with Kathy on this.
>
> >>Bringing this thread back to my original question, I'm not sure
> participating in a short-term internship program is the right way to grow
> the developer community. It's helpful in getting more new programmers to
> learn how to work in an open-source community and, from our successful GSoC
> experiences, it has led to new features for the software. I think these are
> all great things. However, I'm not quite sure what the hook is to keep
> those former interns active in our community. If we had a mentorship
> program that worked with people who are planning to or already working in
> libraries, I might feel differently because there is more of an interest to
> stay involved. Even if they don't stay involved, they will continue to
> remember their Evergreen experience at some future point when their
> libraries are exploring ILS options.<<
>
> It's always nice to get more people involved on any level, and I'm
> certainly not opposed to internship opportunities, but I also think that a
> mentorship problem would be much more valuable if we can find a way to make
> that happen.
>
> Terran
>
>
>
> Terran McCanna
> PINES Program Manager
> Georgia Public Library Service
> 1800 Century Place, Suite 150
> Atlanta, GA 30345
> 404-235-7138
> tmccanna at georgialibraries.org
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Lori. That's very generous.
>>
>> I'll defer to the current EOB members to the question of whether they
>> want to pursue this. However, as I mentioned, if we do move forward, we
>> need to make the decision fairly soon since there are several other steps
>> that need to be taken to determine if the community has volunteers
>> interested in making this happen.
>>
>> Kathy
>>
>> On 09/07/2016 03:23 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Kathy.  And before I read your previous posts, what I was going
>> to offer was $500 to offset the costs of being a part of Outreachy.  But I
>> wonder if we could do it with the caveat that the intern has to have some
>> library connection.....
>>
>>
>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>> (707) 763-6869 // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>
>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Lori,
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delayed response.
>>>
>>> Yes, I think it's always helpful for libraries to try to find additional
>>> avenues for getting development done. However, I wanted to clarify that I
>>> wasn't saying there isn't a real need to see growth in the Evergreen
>>> developer community. Bringing more active developers into the community
>>> would indeed help to alleviate bottlenecks since more people would be
>>> working on the code. It also provides more options to libraries, which is
>>> always a good thing.
>>>
>>> Despite the fact that recent releases include features important to
>>> MassLNC, some of which came from our own contributors and some of which
>>> were sponsored, we also have others that are taking longer than we would
>>> have liked. What I was trying to say in my earlier email, though, is that
>>> the inability to move a particular project forward is not the same thing as
>>> saying that all development unrelated to the web client has come to a halt.
>>> It's frustrating when you have to struggle and wait to bring a new feature
>>> to fruition. I know, I've been there. But the software does continue to
>>> grow and, in addition to bringing new features in every release, has also
>>> become more secure for patrons over the past year.
>>>
>>> Bringing this thread back to my original question, I'm not sure
>>> participating in a short-term internship program is the right way to grow
>>> the developer community. It's helpful in getting more new programmers to
>>> learn how to work in an open-source community and, from our successful GSoC
>>> experiences, it has led to new features for the software. I think these are
>>> all great things. However, I'm not quite sure what the hook is to keep
>>> those former interns active in our community. If we had a mentorship
>>> program that worked with people who are planning to or already working in
>>> libraries, I might feel differently because there is more of an interest to
>>> stay involved. Even if they don't stay involved, they will continue to
>>> remember their Evergreen experience at some future point when their
>>> libraries are exploring ILS options.
>>>
>>> Bringing in more libraries might also lead to more options because those
>>> libraries could have more technical staff who can contribute to the project
>>> or they may create a larger market, making it more viable for developers to
>>> create their own Evergreen development services company. This is part of
>>> the reason for forming the Outreach Committee - to help us get the word out
>>> about how our libraries are succeeding with Evergreen.
>>>
>>> What I need to know now, though, is if there is interest from the EOB in
>>> pursuing Outreachy for this session. If there is interest in funding this
>>> internship, we need to also reach out to the community to see if anyone
>>> will volunteer to organize the program and mentor students. If there isn't
>>> interest, I need to get back to the Outreachy folks to let them know.
>>>
>>> Kathy
>>>
>>> On 09/02/2016 04:38 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback, Kathy. Based on the release notes, it does
>>> look like some important progress is being made. Be advised that I was
>>> reporting what I'm hearing from people as I talk to various Evergreen
>>> community members so it is a perception out there even if there is some
>>> good progress being made.  I wonder if it has more to do with who's
>>> enhancements are represented in the release notes. If a library has had
>>> something on a wish list for a long time and they haven't made any progress
>>> bringing it to fruition, I imagine they would be frustrated.
>>>
>>> So maybe part of the problem is that people don't know what they need to
>>> do to increase the likelihood of a desired enhancement getting the right
>>> kind of attention. That might be another angle to focus on....is there a
>>> resource out there that provides some guidance about the process for
>>> getting an enhancement into the code? From my point of view, the libraries
>>> seem to think the solution to getting an enhancement is to hire Equinox to
>>> do it.  So, it is possible that many libraries have created their own
>>> bottleneck by relying on only one development team.
>>>
>>> Do you think you feel better about the progress being made with
>>> Evergreen because of MassLNC's very active involvement in the development
>>> and developer community? My belief is that you and your team represent a
>>> model that others should be replicating.  Do you think that if more
>>> consortia were doing the kinds of work you and the folks in Massachusetts
>>> are doing in terms of documentation and coding, we wouldn't have some of
>>> the bottlenecks?
>>>
>>> Lori
>>>
>>> P.S. I don't want to give the impression I'm picking on Equinox. I
>>> appreciate all the work they do for sure.  I'm looking for feedback because
>>> I want to a) support Evergreen and do whatever I can to contribute to its
>>> success as I do my consulting work and b) see if my ideas of what would
>>> make a difference seem right to those of you in the trenches! So, feedback
>>> appreciated online or offline.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>>> (707) 763-6869 // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>>
>>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Lori,
>>>>
>>>> We actually had a discussion at our most recent dev meeting about
>>>> building mentorship opportunities for coders and will be continuing that
>>>> discussion at the hack-a-way in November. It's something that I know
>>>> MassLNC is very interested in seeing happen, and I'm sure others in the
>>>> community feel the same.
>>>>
>>>> However, after working firsthand with the OPW program and observing
>>>> closely our previous efforts with GSoC, I'm not sure those programs are the
>>>> best fit for this community. I think those programs work very well in
>>>> open-source communities where there is a lot of volunteer interest because
>>>> the software is something that gets broad use in business or in personal
>>>> life. Those volunteers have an incentive to keep contributing to the
>>>> community after the internship because they have a vested interest in
>>>> seeing the software succeed.
>>>>
>>>> Although most of our previous interns have certainly loved libraries,
>>>> they aren't working in them and, therefore, have no vested interest in
>>>> continuing in the community once their internship is complete. My personal
>>>> opinion (and others may disagree with me) is that we might have better
>>>> success if we work with people who are already working in libraries or are
>>>> involved in MLS programs.
>>>>
>>>> I do want to take issue with the perception that "all other development
>>>> comes to a halt." I'm looking at the draft release notes for 2.11 -
>>>> https://evergreen-ils.org/documentation/release/RELEASE_NOTES_2_11.html
>>>> and the release notes for our March 2.10 release -
>>>> https://evergreen-ils.org/documentation/release/RELEASE_NOTES_2_10.html.
>>>> This doesn't look like halted development to me.
>>>>
>>>> In particular, I would like to point out my personal favorite from the
>>>> release notes, the activity metric for relevance ranking (AKA statistically
>>>> generated record ratings) that I think will be a big boon to searches
>>>> performed in the catalog. This was no small project and was completed at
>>>> the same time work was being performed on the web client. In addition to
>>>> the web client, MassLNC has projects lined up to improve cross-reference
>>>> support and to make much-needed improvements to search. I'm sure others
>>>> have projects coming down the pike as well.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not saying that the web client hasn't taken up a lot of developer
>>>> resources over the past couple of years, that I'm not also concerned about
>>>> growing developer resources in the community, and that I'm not looking
>>>> forward to the day when we the web client is not putting such a strain on
>>>> our existing developer resources. But I do want to point out that the
>>>> software is moving forward even as the web client project proceeds.
>>>>
>>>> Please understand that the web client is a very large project that,
>>>> while resource intensive, will ultimately bring many benefits to Evergreen
>>>> users. It's large, and it has to be large if we want to see it done right.
>>>> I applaud Equinox and the larger developer community for taking the
>>>> necessary steps to make the big infrastructure changes rather than bolting
>>>> on small fixes that might lead to short-term happiness, but will not bring
>>>> the larger improvement that is needed in our software.
>>>>
>>>> Kathy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 09/02/2016 02:13 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Kathy and all,
>>>>
>>>> I just went through and read through the thread about participating in
>>>> this the last time it came up.  And I have to say it was disheartening.
>>>> Has anything been done around the idea Grace raised - to survey people who
>>>> have attempted to get involved in coding for Evergreen to find out what the
>>>> impediments were?  I think that would be very fruitful....if you can find
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> I have a perspective on this topic I'd like to share.  I'm working with
>>>> a couple Evergreen consortia right now and in the process I'm talking with
>>>> many other consortia on Evergreen (and other ILSs including Koha) and there
>>>> is a consistent theme that Evergreen development is too slow and that this
>>>> is beginning to make some consortia question whether Evergreen really makes
>>>> sense for them.  It isn't uncommon for me hear that people are frustrated
>>>> that it is taking so long to deliver the web client and that other
>>>> enhancements are being tabled until that is done. And it starts to feel
>>>> strikingly similar to what it was like with a commercial ILS where requests
>>>> for enhancements were ignored.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is because there so few developers. I know Equinox is
>>>> focusing their energies on the web client but that shouldn't mean all other
>>>> development comes to a halt.  There should be more human resources involved
>>>> so that one company focusing on one big component shouldn't halt progress
>>>> on everything else.  I know this same thing happened when KCLS first got
>>>> involved and was able to monopolize the the limited developer community to
>>>> focus on their priorities. And I have to say that I personally attempted to
>>>> bring in more developers to the fold (as part of that KCLS initiative) so
>>>> that instead of monopolizing the limited resources, the end result would be
>>>> to expand and enrich the pool of developers.  But that turned out to be
>>>> VERY hard to do. And the people I got interested in development and who
>>>> tried to get involved...all gave up - discouraged and frustrated.
>>>>
>>>> So, I'd like to suggest it should be a very high priority to find a
>>>> better way to attract, on-board, and retain people who would like to get
>>>> involved in the Evergreen community on the coding level.  I don't think
>>>> waiting on delivery of the web client is an adequate strategy.
>>>>
>>>> Lori
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>>>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>>>> (707) 763-6869 <%28707%29%20763-6869> // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>>>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>>>
>>>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>>>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Outreachy (formerly Outreach Program for Women) is happening again.
>>>>> The administrators are asking if there is any interest in participating
>>>>> from the Evergreen community.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm also linking to the EOB thread from the last time this question
>>>>> was raised - http://list.evergreen-ils.org/
>>>>> pipermail/eg-oversight-board/2016-February/001209.html.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, I stand by the comments I made in that previous thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Evergreen participation in Outreachy?
>>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 14:11:16 -0700
>>>>> From: Sarah Sharp <saharabeara at gmail.com> <saharabeara at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org> <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>>>> CC: outreachy-admins at gnome.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Kathy,
>>>>>
>>>>> The Outreachy program is looking for organizations to participate in
>>>>> round 13.  Do you think Evergreen would be willing to participate again?
>>>>> The round will open on September 12, and the sooner Evergreen is listed,
>>>>> the more likely you'll get strong applicants.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah Sharp
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sarah A Sharp <sarah at thesharps.us> <sarah at thesharps.us> wrote:
>>>>> > Dear coordinators and mentors,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thank you for being a part of our outreach program! The next round for
>>>>> > Outreachy is scheduled to open on September 12, with an application deadline
>>>>> > of October 17. Internships will run from December 6 to March 6.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If your organization is interested in participating in the next round,
>>>>> > please update your landing page, and let us know by September 7 if you will
>>>>> > participate. Organization coordinators and mentors, please coordinate on the
>>>>> > following:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  * Review set up information at
>>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/GettingStarted
>>>>> >  * Secure funding for your org to sponsor at least one intern ($6,500)
>>>>> >  * Update your org's landing page
>>>>> >  * List your project ideas and recruit other mentors
>>>>> >  * Let us know at outreachy-admins at gnome.org that your org is participating
>>>>> >  * Start spreading the word about your org's internships - no need to wait
>>>>> > for September 12
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We plan on having a twitter chat about Outreachy on Wednesday, September 21,
>>>>> > to spotlight the organizations that are participating, and allow orgs to
>>>>> > answer any questions people have. Participation in the chat is optional, but
>>>>> > if you do want to participate, being able to link to a blog post that
>>>>> > describes why you're passionate about your project would help us promote
>>>>> > your project.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The updated resources for the upcoming round are:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/2016/DecemberMarch - a page with a
>>>>> > timeline and participating organizations listing.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/InfoForOrgs and
>>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/InfoForOrgs/Proposal - these pages
>>>>> > have motivation and information for sponsorship; you can use and customize
>>>>> > the text from the Proposal page to approach companies about sponsorship
>>>>> > (please do a quick check with Karen, Marina, and myself at
>>>>> > outreachy-admins at gnome.org alias first to make sure we coordinate any
>>>>> > efforts to approach the same company).
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/GettingStarted - please review
>>>>> > this page when you are updating the landing page for your organization.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Contracts - please make all people who
>>>>> > volunteer as mentors in your organization aware that they will need to sign
>>>>> > a contract similar to this to be a mentor in the program. Interns cannot be
>>>>> > paid until their mentors sign the contract, so it is important that mentors
>>>>> > sign the contract as soon as the application system opens on September 12.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Eligibility - last year we expanded the
>>>>> > Outreachy program to include underrepresented people of color
>>>>> > underrepresented in tech in the U.S.  Outreachy continues to be open
>>>>> > internationally to women (cis and trans), trans men, and genderqueer people.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Please contact Karen, Marina, and myself at outreachy-admins at gnome.org alias
>>>>> > if you have any questions. We hope you can join us for this round!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>> > Sarah Sharp
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ eg-oversight-board
>>>>> mailing list eg-oversight-board at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/eg-ov
>>>>> ersight-board
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kathy Lussier
>>>> Project Coordinator
>>>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Kathy Lussier
>>> Project Coordinator
>>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>>
>>> --
>> Kathy Lussier
>> Project Coordinator
>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>
>>
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