[Eg-oversight-board] Fwd: Evergreen participation in Outreachy?

Sharon Herbert sharon.herbert at bc.libraries.coop
Thu Sep 8 16:24:43 EDT 2016 

Agreed re: mentorship. I think participation in programs like Outreach  
should demonstrate good return on investment in terms of $ cost to  
participate and valuable community member time. Growing our internal  
mentorship processes seems a better ROI. So, I think we should skip  
Outreachy.

A recent developer meeting had some time on the agenda to discuss how  
to better help new developers/potential developers climb the learning  
curve faster; I don't think that discussion happened due to time  
constraints. We have a new developer who could offer some insights,  
I'm sure there are others in the community too, so maybe a focused  
developer meeting on this topic would be a good place to start?

thanks,
Sharon
Quoting Ruth Frasur <director at hagerstownlibrary.org>:

> Agree on the mentorship vs. internship.
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Terran McCanna <
> tmccanna at georgialibraries.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm with Kathy on this.
>>
>> >>Bringing this thread back to my original question, I'm not sure
>> participating in a short-term internship program is the right way to grow
>> the developer community. It's helpful in getting more new programmers to
>> learn how to work in an open-source community and, from our successful GSoC
>> experiences, it has led to new features for the software. I think these are
>> all great things. However, I'm not quite sure what the hook is to keep
>> those former interns active in our community. If we had a mentorship
>> program that worked with people who are planning to or already working in
>> libraries, I might feel differently because there is more of an interest to
>> stay involved. Even if they don't stay involved, they will continue to
>> remember their Evergreen experience at some future point when their
>> libraries are exploring ILS options.<<
>>
>> It's always nice to get more people involved on any level, and I'm
>> certainly not opposed to internship opportunities, but I also think that a
>> mentorship problem would be much more valuable if we can find a way to make
>> that happen.
>>
>> Terran
>>
>>
>>
>> Terran McCanna
>> PINES Program Manager
>> Georgia Public Library Service
>> 1800 Century Place, Suite 150
>> Atlanta, GA 30345
>> 404-235-7138
>> tmccanna at georgialibraries.org
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Lori. That's very generous.
>>>
>>> I'll defer to the current EOB members to the question of whether they
>>> want to pursue this. However, as I mentioned, if we do move forward, we
>>> need to make the decision fairly soon since there are several other steps
>>> that need to be taken to determine if the community has volunteers
>>> interested in making this happen.
>>>
>>> Kathy
>>>
>>> On 09/07/2016 03:23 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Kathy.  And before I read your previous posts, what I was going
>>> to offer was $500 to offset the costs of being a part of Outreachy.  But I
>>> wonder if we could do it with the caveat that the intern has to have some
>>> library connection.....
>>>
>>>
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>>> (707) 763-6869 // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>>
>>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Lori,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the delayed response.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I think it's always helpful for libraries to try to find additional
>>>> avenues for getting development done. However, I wanted to clarify that I
>>>> wasn't saying there isn't a real need to see growth in the Evergreen
>>>> developer community. Bringing more active developers into the community
>>>> would indeed help to alleviate bottlenecks since more people would be
>>>> working on the code. It also provides more options to libraries, which is
>>>> always a good thing.
>>>>
>>>> Despite the fact that recent releases include features important to
>>>> MassLNC, some of which came from our own contributors and some of which
>>>> were sponsored, we also have others that are taking longer than we would
>>>> have liked. What I was trying to say in my earlier email, though, is that
>>>> the inability to move a particular project forward is not the  
>>>> same thing as
>>>> saying that all development unrelated to the web client has come  
>>>> to a halt.
>>>> It's frustrating when you have to struggle and wait to bring a new feature
>>>> to fruition. I know, I've been there. But the software does continue to
>>>> grow and, in addition to bringing new features in every release, has also
>>>> become more secure for patrons over the past year.
>>>>
>>>> Bringing this thread back to my original question, I'm not sure
>>>> participating in a short-term internship program is the right way to grow
>>>> the developer community. It's helpful in getting more new programmers to
>>>> learn how to work in an open-source community and, from our  
>>>> successful GSoC
>>>> experiences, it has led to new features for the software. I think  
>>>> these are
>>>> all great things. However, I'm not quite sure what the hook is to keep
>>>> those former interns active in our community. If we had a mentorship
>>>> program that worked with people who are planning to or already working in
>>>> libraries, I might feel differently because there is more of an  
>>>> interest to
>>>> stay involved. Even if they don't stay involved, they will continue to
>>>> remember their Evergreen experience at some future point when their
>>>> libraries are exploring ILS options.
>>>>
>>>> Bringing in more libraries might also lead to more options because those
>>>> libraries could have more technical staff who can contribute to  
>>>> the project
>>>> or they may create a larger market, making it more viable for  
>>>> developers to
>>>> create their own Evergreen development services company. This is part of
>>>> the reason for forming the Outreach Committee - to help us get  
>>>> the word out
>>>> about how our libraries are succeeding with Evergreen.
>>>>
>>>> What I need to know now, though, is if there is interest from the EOB in
>>>> pursuing Outreachy for this session. If there is interest in funding this
>>>> internship, we need to also reach out to the community to see if anyone
>>>> will volunteer to organize the program and mentor students. If there isn't
>>>> interest, I need to get back to the Outreachy folks to let them know.
>>>>
>>>> Kathy
>>>>
>>>> On 09/02/2016 04:38 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your feedback, Kathy. Based on the release notes, it does
>>>> look like some important progress is being made. Be advised that I was
>>>> reporting what I'm hearing from people as I talk to various Evergreen
>>>> community members so it is a perception out there even if there is some
>>>> good progress being made.  I wonder if it has more to do with who's
>>>> enhancements are represented in the release notes. If a library has had
>>>> something on a wish list for a long time and they haven't made  
>>>> any progress
>>>> bringing it to fruition, I imagine they would be frustrated.
>>>>
>>>> So maybe part of the problem is that people don't know what they need to
>>>> do to increase the likelihood of a desired enhancement getting the right
>>>> kind of attention. That might be another angle to focus on....is there a
>>>> resource out there that provides some guidance about the process for
>>>> getting an enhancement into the code? From my point of view, the libraries
>>>> seem to think the solution to getting an enhancement is to hire Equinox to
>>>> do it.  So, it is possible that many libraries have created their own
>>>> bottleneck by relying on only one development team.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think you feel better about the progress being made with
>>>> Evergreen because of MassLNC's very active involvement in the development
>>>> and developer community? My belief is that you and your team represent a
>>>> model that others should be replicating.  Do you think that if more
>>>> consortia were doing the kinds of work you and the folks in Massachusetts
>>>> are doing in terms of documentation and coding, we wouldn't have some of
>>>> the bottlenecks?
>>>>
>>>> Lori
>>>>
>>>> P.S. I don't want to give the impression I'm picking on Equinox. I
>>>> appreciate all the work they do for sure.  I'm looking for  
>>>> feedback because
>>>> I want to a) support Evergreen and do whatever I can to contribute to its
>>>> success as I do my consulting work and b) see if my ideas of what would
>>>> make a difference seem right to those of you in the trenches! So, feedback
>>>> appreciated online or offline.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>>>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>>>> (707) 763-6869 // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>>>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>>>
>>>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>>>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Lori,
>>>>>
>>>>> We actually had a discussion at our most recent dev meeting about
>>>>> building mentorship opportunities for coders and will be continuing that
>>>>> discussion at the hack-a-way in November. It's something that I know
>>>>> MassLNC is very interested in seeing happen, and I'm sure others in the
>>>>> community feel the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, after working firsthand with the OPW program and observing
>>>>> closely our previous efforts with GSoC, I'm not sure those  
>>>>> programs are the
>>>>> best fit for this community. I think those programs work very well in
>>>>> open-source communities where there is a lot of volunteer  
>>>>> interest because
>>>>> the software is something that gets broad use in business or in personal
>>>>> life. Those volunteers have an incentive to keep contributing to the
>>>>> community after the internship because they have a vested interest in
>>>>> seeing the software succeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although most of our previous interns have certainly loved libraries,
>>>>> they aren't working in them and, therefore, have no vested interest in
>>>>> continuing in the community once their internship is complete.  
>>>>> My personal
>>>>> opinion (and others may disagree with me) is that we might have better
>>>>> success if we work with people who are already working in  
>>>>> libraries or are
>>>>> involved in MLS programs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do want to take issue with the perception that "all other development
>>>>> comes to a halt." I'm looking at the draft release notes for 2.11 -
>>>>> https://evergreen-ils.org/documentation/release/RELEASE_NOTES_2_11.html
>>>>> and the release notes for our March 2.10 release -
>>>>> https://evergreen-ils.org/documentation/release/RELEASE_NOTES_2_10.html.
>>>>> This doesn't look like halted development to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, I would like to point out my personal favorite from the
>>>>> release notes, the activity metric for relevance ranking (AKA  
>>>>> statistically
>>>>> generated record ratings) that I think will be a big boon to searches
>>>>> performed in the catalog. This was no small project and was completed at
>>>>> the same time work was being performed on the web client. In addition to
>>>>> the web client, MassLNC has projects lined up to improve cross-reference
>>>>> support and to make much-needed improvements to search. I'm sure others
>>>>> have projects coming down the pike as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not saying that the web client hasn't taken up a lot of developer
>>>>> resources over the past couple of years, that I'm not also  
>>>>> concerned about
>>>>> growing developer resources in the community, and that I'm not looking
>>>>> forward to the day when we the web client is not putting such a strain on
>>>>> our existing developer resources. But I do want to point out that the
>>>>> software is moving forward even as the web client project proceeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please understand that the web client is a very large project that,
>>>>> while resource intensive, will ultimately bring many benefits to  
>>>>> Evergreen
>>>>> users. It's large, and it has to be large if we want to see it  
>>>>> done right.
>>>>> I applaud Equinox and the larger developer community for taking the
>>>>> necessary steps to make the big infrastructure changes rather  
>>>>> than bolting
>>>>> on small fixes that might lead to short-term happiness, but will  
>>>>> not bring
>>>>> the larger improvement that is needed in our software.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/02/2016 02:13 PM, Lori Ayre wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Kathy and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just went through and read through the thread about participating in
>>>>> this the last time it came up.  And I have to say it was disheartening.
>>>>> Has anything been done around the idea Grace raised - to survey  
>>>>> people who
>>>>> have attempted to get involved in coding for Evergreen to find  
>>>>> out what the
>>>>> impediments were?  I think that would be very fruitful....if you can find
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a perspective on this topic I'd like to share.  I'm working with
>>>>> a couple Evergreen consortia right now and in the process I'm  
>>>>> talking with
>>>>> many other consortia on Evergreen (and other ILSs including  
>>>>> Koha) and there
>>>>> is a consistent theme that Evergreen development is too slow and  
>>>>> that this
>>>>> is beginning to make some consortia question whether Evergreen  
>>>>> really makes
>>>>> sense for them.  It isn't uncommon for me hear that people are frustrated
>>>>> that it is taking so long to deliver the web client and that other
>>>>> enhancements are being tabled until that is done. And it starts to feel
>>>>> strikingly similar to what it was like with a commercial ILS  
>>>>> where requests
>>>>> for enhancements were ignored.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is because there so few developers. I know Equinox is
>>>>> focusing their energies on the web client but that shouldn't  
>>>>> mean all other
>>>>> development comes to a halt.  There should be more human  
>>>>> resources involved
>>>>> so that one company focusing on one big component shouldn't halt progress
>>>>> on everything else.  I know this same thing happened when KCLS first got
>>>>> involved and was able to monopolize the the limited developer  
>>>>> community to
>>>>> focus on their priorities. And I have to say that I personally  
>>>>> attempted to
>>>>> bring in more developers to the fold (as part of that KCLS initiative) so
>>>>> that instead of monopolizing the limited resources, the end  
>>>>> result would be
>>>>> to expand and enrich the pool of developers.  But that turned out to be
>>>>> VERY hard to do. And the people I got interested in development and who
>>>>> tried to get involved...all gave up - discouraged and frustrated.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I'd like to suggest it should be a very high priority to find a
>>>>> better way to attract, on-board, and retain people who would like to get
>>>>> involved in the Evergreen community on the coding level.  I don't think
>>>>> waiting on delivery of the web client is an adequate strategy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lori
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>>> Lori Bowen Ayre //
>>>>> Library Technology Consultant / The Galecia Group
>>>>> (707) 763-6869 <%28707%29%20763-6869> // Lori.Ayre at galecia.com
>>>>> Availability:  https://doodle.com/loriayre
>>>>>
>>>>> Specializing in RFID, automated materials handling,
>>>>> workflow optimization, and Drupal services
>>>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Outreachy (formerly Outreach Program for Women) is happening again.
>>>>>> The administrators are asking if there is any interest in participating
>>>>>> from the Evergreen community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm also linking to the EOB thread from the last time this question
>>>>>> was raised - http://list.evergreen-ils.org/
>>>>>> pipermail/eg-oversight-board/2016-February/001209.html.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, I stand by the comments I made in that previous thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kathy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: Evergreen participation in Outreachy?
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 14:11:16 -0700
>>>>>> From: Sarah Sharp <saharabeara at gmail.com> <saharabeara at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: Kathy Lussier <klussier at masslnc.org> <klussier at masslnc.org>
>>>>>> CC: outreachy-admins at gnome.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Kathy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Outreachy program is looking for organizations to participate in
>>>>>> round 13.  Do you think Evergreen would be willing to participate again?
>>>>>> The round will open on September 12, and the sooner Evergreen is listed,
>>>>>> the more likely you'll get strong applicants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah Sharp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sarah A Sharp  
>>>>>> <sarah at thesharps.us> <sarah at thesharps.us> wrote:
>>>>>> > Dear coordinators and mentors,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Thank you for being a part of our outreach program! The next round for
>>>>>> > Outreachy is scheduled to open on September 12, with an  
>>>>>> application deadline
>>>>>> > of October 17. Internships will run from December 6 to March 6.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If your organization is interested in participating in the next round,
>>>>>> > please update your landing page, and let us know by September  
>>>>>> 7 if you will
>>>>>> > participate. Organization coordinators and mentors, please  
>>>>>> coordinate on the
>>>>>> > following:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  * Review set up information at
>>>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/GettingStarted
>>>>>> >  * Secure funding for your org to sponsor at least one intern ($6,500)
>>>>>> >  * Update your org's landing page
>>>>>> >  * List your project ideas and recruit other mentors
>>>>>> >  * Let us know at outreachy-admins at gnome.org that your org is  
>>>>>> participating
>>>>>> >  * Start spreading the word about your org's internships - no  
>>>>>> need to wait
>>>>>> > for September 12
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > We plan on having a twitter chat about Outreachy on  
>>>>>> Wednesday, September 21,
>>>>>> > to spotlight the organizations that are participating, and  
>>>>>> allow orgs to
>>>>>> > answer any questions people have. Participation in the chat  
>>>>>> is optional, but
>>>>>> > if you do want to participate, being able to link to a blog post that
>>>>>> > describes why you're passionate about your project would help  
>>>>>> us promote
>>>>>> > your project.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The updated resources for the upcoming round are:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/2016/DecemberMarch - a page with a
>>>>>> > timeline and participating organizations listing.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/InfoForOrgs and
>>>>>> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/InfoForOrgs/Proposal -  
>>>>>> these pages
>>>>>> > have motivation and information for sponsorship; you can use  
>>>>>> and customize
>>>>>> > the text from the Proposal page to approach companies about  
>>>>>> sponsorship
>>>>>> > (please do a quick check with Karen, Marina, and myself at
>>>>>> > outreachy-admins at gnome.org alias first to make sure we coordinate any
>>>>>> > efforts to approach the same company).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/Admin/GettingStarted -  
>>>>>> please review
>>>>>> > this page when you are updating the landing page for your  
>>>>>> organization.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Contracts - please make  
>>>>>> all people who
>>>>>> > volunteer as mentors in your organization aware that they  
>>>>>> will need to sign
>>>>>> > a contract similar to this to be a mentor in the program.  
>>>>>> Interns cannot be
>>>>>> > paid until their mentors sign the contract, so it is  
>>>>>> important that mentors
>>>>>> > sign the contract as soon as the application system opens on  
>>>>>> September 12.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  * https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy#Eligibility - last year  
>>>>>> we expanded the
>>>>>> > Outreachy program to include underrepresented people of color
>>>>>> > underrepresented in tech in the U.S.  Outreachy continues to be open
>>>>>> > internationally to women (cis and trans), trans men, and  
>>>>>> genderqueer people.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Please contact Karen, Marina, and myself at  
>>>>>> outreachy-admins at gnome.org alias
>>>>>> > if you have any questions. We hope you can join us for this round!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>>> > Sarah Sharp
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ eg-oversight-board
>>>>>> mailing list eg-oversight-board at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>>>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/eg-ov
>>>>>> ersight-board
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kathy Lussier
>>>>> Project Coordinator
>>>>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508)  
>>>>> 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>>>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> Kathy Lussier
>>>> Project Coordinator
>>>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508)  
>>>> 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Kathy Lussier
>>> Project Coordinator
>>> Massachusetts Library Network Cooperative(508) 343-0128klussier at masslnc.org
>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/kmlussier
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eg-oversight-board mailing list
>>> eg-oversight-board at list.evergreen-ils.org
>>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/eg-oversight-board
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eg-oversight-board mailing list
>> eg-oversight-board at list.evergreen-ils.org
>> http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/eg-oversight-board
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ruth Frasur
> Director of the Historic(ally Awesome) Hagerstown - Jefferson Township
> Library
> 10 W. College Street in Hagerstown, Indiana (47346)
> p (765) 489-5632; f (765) 489-5808
>
> *Our Kickin' Website <http://hagerstownlibrary.org>,  Our Rockin' Facebook
> Page <http://facebook.com/hjtplibrary>,  and The Nettle Creek Players
> <http://nettlecreekplayers.com>*


-- 
Sharon Herbert
Sitka Manager | BC Libraries Cooperative
Toll-free: 1-855-383-5761 x1013 | Skype: sherbert42
Email: sharon.herbert at bc.libraries.coop | Twitter @sherbertbc
Website: http://bc.libraries.coop

More information about the eg-oversight-board mailing list